Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 21:28:33 GMT -6
I don't look at Orcs as being Evil
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 6/23/2002 10:00 PM
Thought I would bring this up, I don't really think of Orcs as being Evil since they have no choice > Sure they have killed many innocent lives and killed even there own kind but I still do not think them Evil > Let me explain why I don't think of them as Evil > Lets say an Alligator attacks an innocent human being and kills them would you say the Alligator is Evil ? I would say the Alligator since it did not have a choice was not Evil ? Orcs since they don't have a choice can't be Evil for what they do I mean it not there fault that they are like that just like its not an Alligators fault or a Sharks fault if they kill someone since they have no choice > It says in the Silmarillion that Melkor took Elves and tormented them and thats how Orcs came into being and so the race of Orcs have no choice but to be like they are > Thats why I never looked at Orcs as being Evil but more as viscous beings who have no choice but to be viscous just like many wild animals > What do you all think ? I am curious to others people view on this subject >
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 37 in Discussion
From: Fingon
Sent: 6/24/2002 9:12 PM
I agree. I find myself feeling lots of sympathy with the Orcs. Afterall, the original Orcs were Elves whom were altered into the orcs. One thing I have wondered, is where do the orcs go after they have parted Middle Earth?
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 37 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/24/2002 10:14 PM
Nazgul,
I haven't yet had a chance to welcome you to this board - it's great to see your posts!
You've stepped on a hornets nest here - one that I have been wanting to return to. If you are interested in reading what has been said on this subject before, go to the "Entities of Arda" board and read the thread called "Orc Lore." (Also, for amusement, you can read "A Warning to Karo6...LOL" on the "General" board - it grew out of this debate.)
The problem seems to be in the origin of orcs vs. their function in the story. In origin, the orcs are tragic. But to make the story work, they need to be treated as though they are pure evil - their only function to be slaughtered in battle. I have been the standard bearer of the latter camp. It's contrary to my pacifist nature, but someone has to do it!
As I read Tolkien's letters, I have been re-thinking this debate and it's consequences. So, apparently, has Karo6, my main antagonist in this little romp. So more is sure to come soon. Your input and reflections will be appreciated!
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 37 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 7/6/2002 10:49 AM
Nazgul, I feel the need to disagree with you here.
Of course wild animals kill. They need to eat, they are contributing to the food chain. On the other hand, orcs don't kill to eat, they just kill.
OK, so they were tortured into being what they are, (shed a tear if you will) but what ever happened to redemption??? Surely orcs can be redeemed in some way?
Besides, nothing is all evil, not even Morgoth himself.
~Gilwen~
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 37 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 7/6/2002 11:54 PM
I have to agree with Gilwen on this one. Alligators and animals do not have the ability to reason and so can not be compardto sentinent beings such as orcs who knew what the acts they were doing were wrong and cruel yet gloried in doing them. It was the accepted norm in orcish society but we all should know that majority rule isn't neccesarily right.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 37 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 7/8/2002 4:48 PM
Doesn't mean I don't feel sympathy for orcs ~ I do. They're tortured souls but they're evil tortured souls
~Gilwen~
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameVairë_Daystar
Sent: 7/9/2002 8:42 PM
And, actually, since the orcs are so fond of "man-flesh" they probably do kill to eat as well, if they find a small encampment and are feeling peckish... Poor orcs, they're not really evil, they're just misunderstood?
The world is full of examples of one culture finding repugnant that which is considered normal, acceptable and even laudable in another, and has been for millenia. Who are we to pass judgment on the orcs? They have been subjected for their entire existence to nothing but pain and hardship, hatred and suffering. Not to mention the indomitable will of Sauron driving them on, depriving them of true independence or freedom of will.
At the end of the War of the Ring, the orcs were finally released from this bondage. What will happen to them? If Aragorn is as wise as he seems, he should allow some of them to live, if they don't harrass his people. Give them some land, like the people of Nurnen, and let them do with it. The orcs finally have a chance to develop by themselves. It would take generations, but I like to think that they could be redeemed, and find a peaceful place and fulfillment, killing wild beasts that threaten settlements, then returning home to families, and the grateful thanks of the people they save.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/24/2002 3:05 PM
yes I am aware that perhaps orcs don't kill for food all the time what I was pointing out was like Alligators have no choice just like orcs > Now perhaps the Elves who were tortured manby they were warned and manby not before they became Orcs but however it may be with the first Orcs there offspring is blameless > One thing lets look at all the other races like the Elves we can see Galadriel,Glorfindel on one side and then look at Feanor who seemed kinda ruthless , and with Dwarves and said some Dwarves were wicked and then there was Dwarves like Thorin and Gimli, and then we see Men like Aragron,Boromir and then we know that Sauron had many men in his service take the Maia there is Gandalf on one side and then Saruman and Sauron and the Balrog on another side > My point is with Elves,Dwarvs,Men,the Maia some can be ruthless comes can be kind and that means that they have a choice, Gandalf could have been ruthless like Sauron could have been kind my point is they had a choice > But take the Orcs you never hear of a good orcs ever like you hear of a Good Maia or Man or Elf and Dwarf, why is that ? that is why I feel that the Orcs had no choice and were not like TRUE EVIL meaning that they did not make a choise to walk down the path of Darkness like Sauron and the Balrog and many men ect. , but they walked that path because they had no choice
_________________________________________-
Reply
Message 9 of 37 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 8/24/2002 7:41 PM
You make a good point, Nazgul.
Though men, dwarves, elves, hobbits, Maiar, and even ents can choose their path, orcs cannot. We may have played around with the idea of rehabilitated orcs on this board, but there is no such thing in Tolkien's world. They are what they are.
Therefore, perhaps you are right, they are not evil.
But they ARE tortured and torturing beings, who are tormented and tormenting. With all compassion, it seems to me, the thing to do is put them out of their misery.
With a sword.
Or an axe.
Or a bow.
Or a knife.
Or your bare hands, if need be.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameMissingGrahamCrackers
Sent: 8/24/2002 9:22 PM
Orcs are what you consider the lowest of the low, they were a disappointment to even the tormenters that created them originally from elves. Orcs are very weak creatures who stand little chance in one on one combat with any other kind. Tolkien seemed to hint to this a lot because orcs always seem to have the upper hand in numbers in battle but seem to lose. (i.e the Battle of the Morannon, the Battle of Pelennor Fields). The only reason the original tormenters of orcs kept them was that they were easily controlled and could multiply easily and in immense numbers.
So now you come to the era post-WotR and the orc problem is to be dealt with. I would agree with megn because I believe the best way to deal with orcs is to put them out of their misery. Although I also must agree to the fact that orcs aren't evil they still do evil things and will not change their ways ever so I think taking orcs out of their misery is the best theory for all middle-earth.
Tuor
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/25/2002 7:19 PM
Well Saruamns Orcs could fight it seemed probley because they had man Blood in them, the Maggots ( as Ugluk called them ) of Moria seemed no match for the Orcs of Isengard, though I wonder manby some of the Orcs of Mordor where very useful what about Grishnakh was manby one of the best he said he was a trusted messanger of Mordor ( though he could have lied ) and it said I think in Unfinshed Tales that he was the Orc Captain of Barad-bur which I would say would make him the Chief Orc of Mordor and if Orcs like Elves die not perhaps he was the Chief Orc in the Last Alliance of Men and Elves > Pippin seemed to think that Grishnakh knew about the Ring hmmmm Gandalf said Orcs are not trusty servants though manby it means only has a whole manby there is a small percent of them that could be trusty servants to Melkor and Sauron and Saruman and the Nazgul >So manby Grishnakh was like the exception that proved the rule or manby he had the fear of the Nazgul on him he waited across the River > Perhaps The Nazgul told Grishnakh about the Ring and manby Grishnakh was trustworthy or manby the Nazgul treated him with torment if Grishnakh should take the Ring for his own, the second theory I said could very well be true for what change would Grishnakh even as great an Orc as he was have against Sauron and besides I am sure he would have been greatly rewarded if he found the Ring > For Grishnakh had not the power of Saruman nor the army to rival Sauron > Grishnakh was my favorite Orc and I hope we will be in the movie if only a little bit I mean how else will the hobbits get free and in the book it said the Ugluk and Eomer have a sword fight now that I feel would have been the man to orcs sword fight to have in the movie and not add Lurtz fighting Aragorn but whats done is done, but anways I hope to see a fierce fight between Ugluk and Eomer in the movie and I wonder was Ugluk the orc caption of Isengard it does not say so in the book but manby it says somewhere in unfinshed tales or the history of middle-earth of whever not sure though I will look for that
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 37 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 8/25/2002 8:23 PM
I agree with you, Tuor.
Hey Glorfindle! How about this as a poll idea? Let's find out where we stand on this issue of orcs, redeemability, evil, etc. To be fair, we'll need to give some thought to what the possible answers should be, and let people have input on it, so that there is an answer that fits each view.
A possible question (and some answers) would be:
What is the nature of orcs?
1. They are absolutely incapable of good, are therefore evil and should be destroyed.
2. They are absolutely incapable of good, are therefore to be pitied, yet must be destroyed for the good of others.
3. They are absolutely incapable of good, are therefore to be pitied, and should be tolerated in restricted areas.
4. They are bred to be evil, but under the right circumstances could make a choice to become good. Therefore we should work to change them.
5. They are not evil, but misunderstood. Their culture is as valid as any other, and we should seek to understand them.
What do other people think? Are there other possible answers that should be included?
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 37 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/26/2002 7:36 AM
Megn:
How about:
6. They were bred to be evil but that is all they know so what they do is not evil to them but only evil to those who oppose them; therefore, they should be given a chance to be rehabilitated.
7. They were bred to be evil, but what they do is not evil in their eyes but righteous to them. Therefore, they should be left alone to live their lives as they choose and be left to deal with any oposition to their way of living as it comes up.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 37 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/26/2002 7:46 AM
and....
8. Orcs were bred to be evil but they don't view it as evil, they view it as the only way to be which is good and proper to them. Therefore, they should attempt to rehabilitate all opposing forces to their way to thinking and living.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/26/2002 10:35 AM
perhaps you could look at it like this > take an Alligater now ( I seem to keep using Alligaters in this debate lol ) well I think Alligaters should be protected and its there nature to kill for food ect. > Now if an Alligater attacks a human that human has a right to defend themselves so if the human kills the Alligater the human is not to blame since he was attacking in defense and the Alligater is not to blame since it has no choice > Though I think people of coarse should use common sense like don't swim or go near places if you know Alligaters are there lol, do not go near them unless you are a pro like Stever Irwin > One could deal with an Orc in like manner if someone kill them out of defense for themselves or others then they are not to blame and neither is the Orc since the Orc has no choice > Treebeard when he was angry with all of the treachery of Isengard said that Wizards know better perhaps Treebeard felt that the Orcs ( even though he was ready to destroy them ) could not be blamed since they had no choice but Saruman now had a choice > Also one time when Treebeard was talking about all the horrid things the Orcs had done notice he said Saruman was to blame he did not say the Orcs where to blame for that in fact he never said that the Orcs where to blame for anything he said he was all together against the Orcs but one can be against Orcs and still understand that they have no choice > Why do Orcs have not choice well manby it could be looked like this > Take a puppy if the owner is nice and treats it right it should grown up to be a nice Dog > Now take an owner that would abuse the puppy then there is a good change the puppy would grow up to be a viscous Dog but yet the Dog would not be to blame > Now Morgoth was more cruel to the Elves he turned to Orcs then any Dog owner I have heard of save the most abusive though perhaps one could look at Orcs as an example to what happens when nature is abused >
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/26/2002 11:01 AM
Now don't get any ideas that I am saying some person who got beat up a lot as a child and then goes out and murders like 50 people is innocent that not quiet what I am saying ( though of coarse you could understand the killer sorta manby perhaps ) Think about the fact with it goes beyond abuse with Orcs they were Tortured by Morgoth, and when it says Turtured I bet it means more than just perhaps cutting them I bet to tell it like it is some were burned alive for days some cut open everywhere, Sauron tortured pippin by just looking at him so Morgoth I bet could do that and someone Morgoth could make them live, now of coarse one could not live by being burned for days but perhaps Morgoth with his dark power could bring that to pass or perhaps he could make one feel that pain or the pain of being cut open everywhere without actually doing it > and it says in there heart they hated thy master they served I wonder why lol > So I bet the Orcs hated Melkor more so than they anyone else for what was done to them > Though they served him out of fear also someone Sauron ensnared the Nazgul to where they had no choice to serve him perhaps Morgoth was able to speak deep into there minds that you must serve him perhaps he did this when they were asleep of out of it > They would hate the Elves perhaps by being jealous so it would be like the loved and hated Elves and the same time and perhaps since they were so ruined they felt inferior to others that were not ruined like they were like men and dwarves and the grass and animals this could explain why they rejoiced in the brutal killing of others just for the fun of it and also while they seemed to rejoice in destroying the grass the trees or anything even if it was not in there way manby they felt inferior towards it > And since they Elves were so perfect looking ect. especially compared to the Orcs it could explain also why the Orcs especially seemed to hate the Elves > Why did they seem so eager than to serve Sauron, well Sauron did breed they Orcs like Morgoth so perhaps they would not hate Sauron like Morgoth and manby part of it was the same as with Gollum in way, what I mean is Gandalf said Gollum heard about those gathering in Mordor and Gandalf said Gollum said there were his new friends he would make who would help him in his revenge, perhaps the Orcs look at Sauron as a help for destroying others they felt inferior to > That I believe though would only be part of it >
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 6/23/2002 10:00 PM
Thought I would bring this up, I don't really think of Orcs as being Evil since they have no choice > Sure they have killed many innocent lives and killed even there own kind but I still do not think them Evil > Let me explain why I don't think of them as Evil > Lets say an Alligator attacks an innocent human being and kills them would you say the Alligator is Evil ? I would say the Alligator since it did not have a choice was not Evil ? Orcs since they don't have a choice can't be Evil for what they do I mean it not there fault that they are like that just like its not an Alligators fault or a Sharks fault if they kill someone since they have no choice > It says in the Silmarillion that Melkor took Elves and tormented them and thats how Orcs came into being and so the race of Orcs have no choice but to be like they are > Thats why I never looked at Orcs as being Evil but more as viscous beings who have no choice but to be viscous just like many wild animals > What do you all think ? I am curious to others people view on this subject >
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 37 in Discussion
From: Fingon
Sent: 6/24/2002 9:12 PM
I agree. I find myself feeling lots of sympathy with the Orcs. Afterall, the original Orcs were Elves whom were altered into the orcs. One thing I have wondered, is where do the orcs go after they have parted Middle Earth?
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 37 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/24/2002 10:14 PM
Nazgul,
I haven't yet had a chance to welcome you to this board - it's great to see your posts!
You've stepped on a hornets nest here - one that I have been wanting to return to. If you are interested in reading what has been said on this subject before, go to the "Entities of Arda" board and read the thread called "Orc Lore." (Also, for amusement, you can read "A Warning to Karo6...LOL" on the "General" board - it grew out of this debate.)
The problem seems to be in the origin of orcs vs. their function in the story. In origin, the orcs are tragic. But to make the story work, they need to be treated as though they are pure evil - their only function to be slaughtered in battle. I have been the standard bearer of the latter camp. It's contrary to my pacifist nature, but someone has to do it!
As I read Tolkien's letters, I have been re-thinking this debate and it's consequences. So, apparently, has Karo6, my main antagonist in this little romp. So more is sure to come soon. Your input and reflections will be appreciated!
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 37 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 7/6/2002 10:49 AM
Nazgul, I feel the need to disagree with you here.
Of course wild animals kill. They need to eat, they are contributing to the food chain. On the other hand, orcs don't kill to eat, they just kill.
OK, so they were tortured into being what they are, (shed a tear if you will) but what ever happened to redemption??? Surely orcs can be redeemed in some way?
Besides, nothing is all evil, not even Morgoth himself.
~Gilwen~
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 37 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 7/6/2002 11:54 PM
I have to agree with Gilwen on this one. Alligators and animals do not have the ability to reason and so can not be compardto sentinent beings such as orcs who knew what the acts they were doing were wrong and cruel yet gloried in doing them. It was the accepted norm in orcish society but we all should know that majority rule isn't neccesarily right.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 37 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 7/8/2002 4:48 PM
Doesn't mean I don't feel sympathy for orcs ~ I do. They're tortured souls but they're evil tortured souls
~Gilwen~
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameVairë_Daystar
Sent: 7/9/2002 8:42 PM
And, actually, since the orcs are so fond of "man-flesh" they probably do kill to eat as well, if they find a small encampment and are feeling peckish... Poor orcs, they're not really evil, they're just misunderstood?
The world is full of examples of one culture finding repugnant that which is considered normal, acceptable and even laudable in another, and has been for millenia. Who are we to pass judgment on the orcs? They have been subjected for their entire existence to nothing but pain and hardship, hatred and suffering. Not to mention the indomitable will of Sauron driving them on, depriving them of true independence or freedom of will.
At the end of the War of the Ring, the orcs were finally released from this bondage. What will happen to them? If Aragorn is as wise as he seems, he should allow some of them to live, if they don't harrass his people. Give them some land, like the people of Nurnen, and let them do with it. The orcs finally have a chance to develop by themselves. It would take generations, but I like to think that they could be redeemed, and find a peaceful place and fulfillment, killing wild beasts that threaten settlements, then returning home to families, and the grateful thanks of the people they save.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/24/2002 3:05 PM
yes I am aware that perhaps orcs don't kill for food all the time what I was pointing out was like Alligators have no choice just like orcs > Now perhaps the Elves who were tortured manby they were warned and manby not before they became Orcs but however it may be with the first Orcs there offspring is blameless > One thing lets look at all the other races like the Elves we can see Galadriel,Glorfindel on one side and then look at Feanor who seemed kinda ruthless , and with Dwarves and said some Dwarves were wicked and then there was Dwarves like Thorin and Gimli, and then we see Men like Aragron,Boromir and then we know that Sauron had many men in his service take the Maia there is Gandalf on one side and then Saruman and Sauron and the Balrog on another side > My point is with Elves,Dwarvs,Men,the Maia some can be ruthless comes can be kind and that means that they have a choice, Gandalf could have been ruthless like Sauron could have been kind my point is they had a choice > But take the Orcs you never hear of a good orcs ever like you hear of a Good Maia or Man or Elf and Dwarf, why is that ? that is why I feel that the Orcs had no choice and were not like TRUE EVIL meaning that they did not make a choise to walk down the path of Darkness like Sauron and the Balrog and many men ect. , but they walked that path because they had no choice
_________________________________________-
Reply
Message 9 of 37 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 8/24/2002 7:41 PM
You make a good point, Nazgul.
Though men, dwarves, elves, hobbits, Maiar, and even ents can choose their path, orcs cannot. We may have played around with the idea of rehabilitated orcs on this board, but there is no such thing in Tolkien's world. They are what they are.
Therefore, perhaps you are right, they are not evil.
But they ARE tortured and torturing beings, who are tormented and tormenting. With all compassion, it seems to me, the thing to do is put them out of their misery.
With a sword.
Or an axe.
Or a bow.
Or a knife.
Or your bare hands, if need be.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameMissingGrahamCrackers
Sent: 8/24/2002 9:22 PM
Orcs are what you consider the lowest of the low, they were a disappointment to even the tormenters that created them originally from elves. Orcs are very weak creatures who stand little chance in one on one combat with any other kind. Tolkien seemed to hint to this a lot because orcs always seem to have the upper hand in numbers in battle but seem to lose. (i.e the Battle of the Morannon, the Battle of Pelennor Fields). The only reason the original tormenters of orcs kept them was that they were easily controlled and could multiply easily and in immense numbers.
So now you come to the era post-WotR and the orc problem is to be dealt with. I would agree with megn because I believe the best way to deal with orcs is to put them out of their misery. Although I also must agree to the fact that orcs aren't evil they still do evil things and will not change their ways ever so I think taking orcs out of their misery is the best theory for all middle-earth.
Tuor
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/25/2002 7:19 PM
Well Saruamns Orcs could fight it seemed probley because they had man Blood in them, the Maggots ( as Ugluk called them ) of Moria seemed no match for the Orcs of Isengard, though I wonder manby some of the Orcs of Mordor where very useful what about Grishnakh was manby one of the best he said he was a trusted messanger of Mordor ( though he could have lied ) and it said I think in Unfinshed Tales that he was the Orc Captain of Barad-bur which I would say would make him the Chief Orc of Mordor and if Orcs like Elves die not perhaps he was the Chief Orc in the Last Alliance of Men and Elves > Pippin seemed to think that Grishnakh knew about the Ring hmmmm Gandalf said Orcs are not trusty servants though manby it means only has a whole manby there is a small percent of them that could be trusty servants to Melkor and Sauron and Saruman and the Nazgul >So manby Grishnakh was like the exception that proved the rule or manby he had the fear of the Nazgul on him he waited across the River > Perhaps The Nazgul told Grishnakh about the Ring and manby Grishnakh was trustworthy or manby the Nazgul treated him with torment if Grishnakh should take the Ring for his own, the second theory I said could very well be true for what change would Grishnakh even as great an Orc as he was have against Sauron and besides I am sure he would have been greatly rewarded if he found the Ring > For Grishnakh had not the power of Saruman nor the army to rival Sauron > Grishnakh was my favorite Orc and I hope we will be in the movie if only a little bit I mean how else will the hobbits get free and in the book it said the Ugluk and Eomer have a sword fight now that I feel would have been the man to orcs sword fight to have in the movie and not add Lurtz fighting Aragorn but whats done is done, but anways I hope to see a fierce fight between Ugluk and Eomer in the movie and I wonder was Ugluk the orc caption of Isengard it does not say so in the book but manby it says somewhere in unfinshed tales or the history of middle-earth of whever not sure though I will look for that
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 37 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 8/25/2002 8:23 PM
I agree with you, Tuor.
Hey Glorfindle! How about this as a poll idea? Let's find out where we stand on this issue of orcs, redeemability, evil, etc. To be fair, we'll need to give some thought to what the possible answers should be, and let people have input on it, so that there is an answer that fits each view.
A possible question (and some answers) would be:
What is the nature of orcs?
1. They are absolutely incapable of good, are therefore evil and should be destroyed.
2. They are absolutely incapable of good, are therefore to be pitied, yet must be destroyed for the good of others.
3. They are absolutely incapable of good, are therefore to be pitied, and should be tolerated in restricted areas.
4. They are bred to be evil, but under the right circumstances could make a choice to become good. Therefore we should work to change them.
5. They are not evil, but misunderstood. Their culture is as valid as any other, and we should seek to understand them.
What do other people think? Are there other possible answers that should be included?
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 37 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/26/2002 7:36 AM
Megn:
How about:
6. They were bred to be evil but that is all they know so what they do is not evil to them but only evil to those who oppose them; therefore, they should be given a chance to be rehabilitated.
7. They were bred to be evil, but what they do is not evil in their eyes but righteous to them. Therefore, they should be left alone to live their lives as they choose and be left to deal with any oposition to their way of living as it comes up.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 37 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/26/2002 7:46 AM
and....
8. Orcs were bred to be evil but they don't view it as evil, they view it as the only way to be which is good and proper to them. Therefore, they should attempt to rehabilitate all opposing forces to their way to thinking and living.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/26/2002 10:35 AM
perhaps you could look at it like this > take an Alligater now ( I seem to keep using Alligaters in this debate lol ) well I think Alligaters should be protected and its there nature to kill for food ect. > Now if an Alligater attacks a human that human has a right to defend themselves so if the human kills the Alligater the human is not to blame since he was attacking in defense and the Alligater is not to blame since it has no choice > Though I think people of coarse should use common sense like don't swim or go near places if you know Alligaters are there lol, do not go near them unless you are a pro like Stever Irwin > One could deal with an Orc in like manner if someone kill them out of defense for themselves or others then they are not to blame and neither is the Orc since the Orc has no choice > Treebeard when he was angry with all of the treachery of Isengard said that Wizards know better perhaps Treebeard felt that the Orcs ( even though he was ready to destroy them ) could not be blamed since they had no choice but Saruman now had a choice > Also one time when Treebeard was talking about all the horrid things the Orcs had done notice he said Saruman was to blame he did not say the Orcs where to blame for that in fact he never said that the Orcs where to blame for anything he said he was all together against the Orcs but one can be against Orcs and still understand that they have no choice > Why do Orcs have not choice well manby it could be looked like this > Take a puppy if the owner is nice and treats it right it should grown up to be a nice Dog > Now take an owner that would abuse the puppy then there is a good change the puppy would grow up to be a viscous Dog but yet the Dog would not be to blame > Now Morgoth was more cruel to the Elves he turned to Orcs then any Dog owner I have heard of save the most abusive though perhaps one could look at Orcs as an example to what happens when nature is abused >
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 37 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameFelineCat9
Sent: 8/26/2002 11:01 AM
Now don't get any ideas that I am saying some person who got beat up a lot as a child and then goes out and murders like 50 people is innocent that not quiet what I am saying ( though of coarse you could understand the killer sorta manby perhaps ) Think about the fact with it goes beyond abuse with Orcs they were Tortured by Morgoth, and when it says Turtured I bet it means more than just perhaps cutting them I bet to tell it like it is some were burned alive for days some cut open everywhere, Sauron tortured pippin by just looking at him so Morgoth I bet could do that and someone Morgoth could make them live, now of coarse one could not live by being burned for days but perhaps Morgoth with his dark power could bring that to pass or perhaps he could make one feel that pain or the pain of being cut open everywhere without actually doing it > and it says in there heart they hated thy master they served I wonder why lol > So I bet the Orcs hated Melkor more so than they anyone else for what was done to them > Though they served him out of fear also someone Sauron ensnared the Nazgul to where they had no choice to serve him perhaps Morgoth was able to speak deep into there minds that you must serve him perhaps he did this when they were asleep of out of it > They would hate the Elves perhaps by being jealous so it would be like the loved and hated Elves and the same time and perhaps since they were so ruined they felt inferior to others that were not ruined like they were like men and dwarves and the grass and animals this could explain why they rejoiced in the brutal killing of others just for the fun of it and also while they seemed to rejoice in destroying the grass the trees or anything even if it was not in there way manby they felt inferior towards it > And since they Elves were so perfect looking ect. especially compared to the Orcs it could explain also why the Orcs especially seemed to hate the Elves > Why did they seem so eager than to serve Sauron, well Sauron did breed they Orcs like Morgoth so perhaps they would not hate Sauron like Morgoth and manby part of it was the same as with Gollum in way, what I mean is Gandalf said Gollum heard about those gathering in Mordor and Gandalf said Gollum said there were his new friends he would make who would help him in his revenge, perhaps the Orcs look at Sauron as a help for destroying others they felt inferior to > That I believe though would only be part of it >