Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 21:51:31 GMT -6
Week three - the thing on which your heart is set
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Message 1 of 22 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/27/2002 6:45 PM
In this week's reading, we hear three times of a work of such beauty that it can only be made once, and the heart of the maker rests in it. For Yavanna it is the two trees. For Feanor it is the Silmarils. For the Teleri it is their white ships.
In your own life, what is the thing in which your heart rests? Do you have something, made by you or by another, that you feel about the way these three feel about their creations?
Can you think of other examples, in Hobbit or LOTR, of this kind of feeling?
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Message 2 of 22 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/27/2002 10:49 PM
I think the obvious reply for most people would be their children or a loved one. Being a bachelor, I could reply about the loved one thing, but rather than state the obvious, I tried to come up with an alternative. It was very hard. I could not declare any atwork I had done or music I created. I am a terrible artist and a very lacking musician. Looking back on my life, there is not much I created that has my heart in it.
Seems I tend to spread my heart around, rather than locking it into one thing. Guess it is the Libra in me. So I will give a string of things that I love:
Favorite movie: "Lion in Winter"
Favorite author: "Tolkien"
Favorite hobby: "on-line RPG's"
Favorite quote: "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not, no explanation will suffice.
Favorite music: "Steely Dan"
If any one thing truly has my heart in it, it would be the relationships I have made over the years with people. I have been in love a number of times with exquisite women. One particularly will always have the greatest part of my heart. I have a great number of very dear friends, which always enriches my life. I am very fond of alot of the people here in TR, and count myself blessed in that.
As far as examples in LotR, the hobbits have a deep love for thier Shire, Gandalf's heart it seems is for all the people of ME, hobbits mostly, the Dwarves for thier halls of stone, etc.
Glor
_____________________________________________________
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Message 3 of 22 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire
Sent: 4/28/2002 2:42 PM
"A thing created is loved before it exists"
I can't recall who said this, but it makes sense to me. i can familiarize with Feanor. often i create things and do not allow others to touch them, or, in the case of the kitchen, i will keep the ingredients secret.
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Message 4 of 22 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/28/2002 7:05 PM
My heart is with my family. Together my husband and I have built a safe haven for each other and our children. There are disagreements and problems that we encounter, but our determination is that we continue together. Above anything, I want to love my family without condition. So many parents are overconcerned with their children's successes.Living vicariously through children can be VERY seductive. I pray that I will be at my best when my children fail or when they hurt or when they come in last.
______________________________________________________
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Message 5 of 22 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/29/2002 4:54 AM
Megn1, I tried very hard to come up with a "thing" that I am most proud of that could only be "made once." I asked myself questions like: If the house was burning down, what non-living item would I try to save? What "achievement" (other than being a mother) would I like on my tombstone? The most important non-living item in my house would be family pictures. There is no "thing" that is so important to me that I need it on my tombstone. Of course, I'm proud of some "things": our house, which my husband and I (mostly by our own hands) doubled in size; my garden, which is my passion; a couple of pieces of writing and art. But, losing these "things" would not devastate me.
There are, however, relationships with some people whose loss would be devastating and would create a hole in my heart that could never be filled again, namely, my family and a few very close friends.
The characters who come to mind from The Hobbit and LotR are Thorin with the Arkenstone and Sauron with the Ring. Both came to bad ends.
__________________________________________________
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Message 6 of 22 in Discussion
From: MysticMagycPony
Sent: 4/29/2002 6:50 AM
Megn1
I decided a path long ago, and it has served me well through the years, that "You can't take it with you." I have done some nice drawings, and framed them and gave them away. As a child with tuberculosis and one of the last sent to a sanitarium, I did some ceramic sculpting that at the time I thought (being only 11) was very good, and gave them all away as gifts....
The creation that I continue to strive for is being kind and helping others. This is my gift. I hope to leave this behind, and as DA suggested, on my tombstone I would like.....
"A true friend to many and enemy of none."
MysticMagycPony
_____________________________________________________
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Message 7 of 22 in Discussion
From: CamelliaDanderfluff
Sent: 4/29/2002 6:51 PM
Megn1's question was thought provoking. Of course, as a mother, I'm amazed at the five adult children developing still in different directions (but still Tolkien readers), but my five grandchildren fill me with wonder with every visit and sleep over. You can step back and glow with pride at every clever thought and deed-where did these marvelous little people come from? All the worries and pain were worth every minute. Pherquarewen, you have glorious days ahead. DaleAnn made me think about saving something in a fire. I have my great great grandmother's multicolored china bowl, passed through the eldest girl of each generation. My daughter after me, & since she has no daughter, my oldest grand daughter will be next in line. I crossed country in 1961 with it wrapped in tissue in a hat box on my lap! An awesome responsibility-my grandmother crossed the ocean with it for my mother. Last word, California earthquakes terrify me, so I bought an elaborate china cabinet anchored to the wall, and it IS the first thing I grab.
___________________________________________________
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Message 8 of 22 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTgloria60
Sent: 4/29/2002 9:21 PM
I also would put my family first as no "thing" could ever be everything to me.I do have some pieces of my own artwork that I couldn't part with as they they have so much of myself in them,but for my family they too come in second.The love of friends is by far more meaningful than mere objects could ever be,yourselves all included!Gloria60
________________________________________________
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Message 9 of 22 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/30/2002 10:31 AM
Having tried to be a poet at young age, and having a military father. I experienced a loss of much of what I thought was fine work at his hands. Although I still create, I have never recaptured that innocence I once possesed back then. As for now I like to think of myself as Aule when it comes to my work. I forever give freely and have faith that the work will move it's way through the universe doing the good it can as it may without my interference. Come that day I see it published under anothers name, as I have, I at least know I wrote it, and that in my universe is all that matters. Life is to short to have desires of grandure but long enough to find peace.
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 22 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 4/30/2002 12:09 PM
Megn...
I have to count myself in the ranks of family. My daughter is the most precious thing I've 'created'. When I was able, I did a lot of craft projects and gave almost everything away as gifts. Each one has a part of me, but she is the one who truly owns my heart. Recent circumstances have re-inforced feelings that no 'thing' is that important. She, and the relationships I have with others are what matter. All of my other blessings are bonus.
Soleil
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 22 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 4/30/2002 1:54 PM
As I read the story, the two trees, the simirillions, and the white boats were all so special because the makers poured so much of their heart and soul into them, that they cannot be re-created.
I listened to Beverly Sills on Charlie Rose last night. She described the night that she sang perfectly. Her face was radiant as she remembered that her voice did exactly as she wished the entire time, each gesture -- perfect for the character and perfect in its timing. She said that it was as if the character inhabited her body. She said that she was never able to achieve that level of perfection again. I think that she experienced that transcendant creative moment.
I have written one poem that strikes me the same way. It is powerful. It says exactly what I wanted it to, and it fits the sonnet form perfectly. I doubt that I will ever write such a good poem again.
Karen
________________________________________________
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Message 12 of 22 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/30/2002 3:41 PM
Karen,
Please post it on our poetry board!!
Glor
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 22 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 4/30/2002 5:31 PM
Glor,
I would be happy to, but it doesn't have anything to do with the works of Mr. Tolkien. Would that be a problem?
Karen
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 22 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/3/2002 1:28 PM
I think Tolkien was makeing a point about the relationship between love and creation. Perhaps he was implying that we must not be possessive of what we create - that whatever is created is then outside our control, just as Aulë could not make the Dwarves alive, or Fëanor could not stop Melkor from taking the Silmarils, and the Teleri could not keep the White Ships from being burned. Nor could Varda keep her light-bearing trees. Yet in each case, the creator loved the creation.
I think also Tolkien saw an analogy between this and his own creation of works about Middle-earth.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 22 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/4/2002 1:32 PM
MysticMagycPony: What a worthy goal in life. If everyone aspired to that, what a peaceful place the world would be. I wish you the best if fulfilling your goal.
Azirite, you make an interesting point "that we must not be possessive of what we create - that whatever is created is then outside our control"
The posts in this thread emphasize relationships as that which many of you prize most. As DaleAnn pointed out, those in ME who poured their hearts into things (as opposed to relationships, character qualities) came to a bad end. In the Silmarillion, those who poured their hearts into things lost them. It seems clear that we do not want to be to heavily tied to "things." Then again, we can lose loved ones, too, as some are so painfully aware. So maybe MysticMagycPony has got it when she chooses her character to pour her heart into. No one can ever take that from her, can they?
The work of art I pour my heart into is raising my daughter. She was born when I was very young, and I have tried hard not to let my youth and inexperience compromise her. When I see her achieve I am proud, and I am prouder still when I see her do the right thing, hold her head up when she is under fire, and try again when she fails. It is a miracle to me that children survive the errors of their parents. (I sympathize with Finwe!)
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 22 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/5/2002 9:11 PM
I have thought about this question very seriously. It was not easy to answer either! I was looking for something tangible that I could give credit to myself for creating! I was thinking about things to hold in your hand or admire from afar such as a piece of artwork or a craft. I stayed away from the obvious choice of family (children) because we all hold those dear anyway. I was looking for something that I had done myself.….and bang! It has been staring me in the face every day!
The thing that I hold most dear is what Storm and I have done together as a team.
First of all, to begin with, I was not the best horsewoman in the world! I couldn’t sit the seat properly and was bouncing all over banging around on top of the horse. I hung onto the saddle horn (which is a No No for the most part in the horse world unless you are cutting cattle!).
When my kids started taking riding lessons, I learned a whole lot just by listening! No! You do not just get on the horse and bang your legs on either side and yell "Yee Hah!" to get them going. There are a lot of buttons and switches that you need to learn in order to tell the horse what to do!
Well, this very novice rider found this two year old filly that she liked and decided she wanted her! A beginner rider and an untrained horse are not a very good combination! They each don’t know nuthin! So it is like the blind leading the blind!
Lucky for me, Storm is a very patient and forgiving horse. She puts up with all of my mistakes and tries really hard to learn what I am trying to tell her. And many things I told her were confusing her because I did not know how to train a horse let alone ride one very well!
So I decided the two of us were going to take riding/training lessons from the lady who taught my kids to ride. With her wonderful teaching abilities, Storm and I have finally learned how to communicate with each other and to become a team.
I sit the seat properly now, Storm thanks me for that! I know how to tell Storm to side pass, change leads, collect herself, go fast or slow, headset, do flying lead changes, turn sharp, move off my legs, or reins, and so many more I just can’t think of them now but will know them when I need them!
We are a team! We have a great bond and respect for each other. We trust each other and we look good when we are out riding! Two "without a clue" beings becoming a team with much hard work and effort. That is the thing that I hold dear to my heart. And I thank our trainer so much for all the knowledge and confidence she gave us.
Stormrider
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 22 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/27/2002 6:45 PM
In this week's reading, we hear three times of a work of such beauty that it can only be made once, and the heart of the maker rests in it. For Yavanna it is the two trees. For Feanor it is the Silmarils. For the Teleri it is their white ships.
In your own life, what is the thing in which your heart rests? Do you have something, made by you or by another, that you feel about the way these three feel about their creations?
Can you think of other examples, in Hobbit or LOTR, of this kind of feeling?
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 22 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/27/2002 10:49 PM
I think the obvious reply for most people would be their children or a loved one. Being a bachelor, I could reply about the loved one thing, but rather than state the obvious, I tried to come up with an alternative. It was very hard. I could not declare any atwork I had done or music I created. I am a terrible artist and a very lacking musician. Looking back on my life, there is not much I created that has my heart in it.
Seems I tend to spread my heart around, rather than locking it into one thing. Guess it is the Libra in me. So I will give a string of things that I love:
Favorite movie: "Lion in Winter"
Favorite author: "Tolkien"
Favorite hobby: "on-line RPG's"
Favorite quote: "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not, no explanation will suffice.
Favorite music: "Steely Dan"
If any one thing truly has my heart in it, it would be the relationships I have made over the years with people. I have been in love a number of times with exquisite women. One particularly will always have the greatest part of my heart. I have a great number of very dear friends, which always enriches my life. I am very fond of alot of the people here in TR, and count myself blessed in that.
As far as examples in LotR, the hobbits have a deep love for thier Shire, Gandalf's heart it seems is for all the people of ME, hobbits mostly, the Dwarves for thier halls of stone, etc.
Glor
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 22 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire
Sent: 4/28/2002 2:42 PM
"A thing created is loved before it exists"
I can't recall who said this, but it makes sense to me. i can familiarize with Feanor. often i create things and do not allow others to touch them, or, in the case of the kitchen, i will keep the ingredients secret.
________________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 22 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/28/2002 7:05 PM
My heart is with my family. Together my husband and I have built a safe haven for each other and our children. There are disagreements and problems that we encounter, but our determination is that we continue together. Above anything, I want to love my family without condition. So many parents are overconcerned with their children's successes.Living vicariously through children can be VERY seductive. I pray that I will be at my best when my children fail or when they hurt or when they come in last.
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 22 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/29/2002 4:54 AM
Megn1, I tried very hard to come up with a "thing" that I am most proud of that could only be "made once." I asked myself questions like: If the house was burning down, what non-living item would I try to save? What "achievement" (other than being a mother) would I like on my tombstone? The most important non-living item in my house would be family pictures. There is no "thing" that is so important to me that I need it on my tombstone. Of course, I'm proud of some "things": our house, which my husband and I (mostly by our own hands) doubled in size; my garden, which is my passion; a couple of pieces of writing and art. But, losing these "things" would not devastate me.
There are, however, relationships with some people whose loss would be devastating and would create a hole in my heart that could never be filled again, namely, my family and a few very close friends.
The characters who come to mind from The Hobbit and LotR are Thorin with the Arkenstone and Sauron with the Ring. Both came to bad ends.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 22 in Discussion
From: MysticMagycPony
Sent: 4/29/2002 6:50 AM
Megn1
I decided a path long ago, and it has served me well through the years, that "You can't take it with you." I have done some nice drawings, and framed them and gave them away. As a child with tuberculosis and one of the last sent to a sanitarium, I did some ceramic sculpting that at the time I thought (being only 11) was very good, and gave them all away as gifts....
The creation that I continue to strive for is being kind and helping others. This is my gift. I hope to leave this behind, and as DA suggested, on my tombstone I would like.....
"A true friend to many and enemy of none."
MysticMagycPony
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 22 in Discussion
From: CamelliaDanderfluff
Sent: 4/29/2002 6:51 PM
Megn1's question was thought provoking. Of course, as a mother, I'm amazed at the five adult children developing still in different directions (but still Tolkien readers), but my five grandchildren fill me with wonder with every visit and sleep over. You can step back and glow with pride at every clever thought and deed-where did these marvelous little people come from? All the worries and pain were worth every minute. Pherquarewen, you have glorious days ahead. DaleAnn made me think about saving something in a fire. I have my great great grandmother's multicolored china bowl, passed through the eldest girl of each generation. My daughter after me, & since she has no daughter, my oldest grand daughter will be next in line. I crossed country in 1961 with it wrapped in tissue in a hat box on my lap! An awesome responsibility-my grandmother crossed the ocean with it for my mother. Last word, California earthquakes terrify me, so I bought an elaborate china cabinet anchored to the wall, and it IS the first thing I grab.
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 22 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTgloria60
Sent: 4/29/2002 9:21 PM
I also would put my family first as no "thing" could ever be everything to me.I do have some pieces of my own artwork that I couldn't part with as they they have so much of myself in them,but for my family they too come in second.The love of friends is by far more meaningful than mere objects could ever be,yourselves all included!Gloria60
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 22 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/30/2002 10:31 AM
Having tried to be a poet at young age, and having a military father. I experienced a loss of much of what I thought was fine work at his hands. Although I still create, I have never recaptured that innocence I once possesed back then. As for now I like to think of myself as Aule when it comes to my work. I forever give freely and have faith that the work will move it's way through the universe doing the good it can as it may without my interference. Come that day I see it published under anothers name, as I have, I at least know I wrote it, and that in my universe is all that matters. Life is to short to have desires of grandure but long enough to find peace.
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 22 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 4/30/2002 12:09 PM
Megn...
I have to count myself in the ranks of family. My daughter is the most precious thing I've 'created'. When I was able, I did a lot of craft projects and gave almost everything away as gifts. Each one has a part of me, but she is the one who truly owns my heart. Recent circumstances have re-inforced feelings that no 'thing' is that important. She, and the relationships I have with others are what matter. All of my other blessings are bonus.
Soleil
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 22 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 4/30/2002 1:54 PM
As I read the story, the two trees, the simirillions, and the white boats were all so special because the makers poured so much of their heart and soul into them, that they cannot be re-created.
I listened to Beverly Sills on Charlie Rose last night. She described the night that she sang perfectly. Her face was radiant as she remembered that her voice did exactly as she wished the entire time, each gesture -- perfect for the character and perfect in its timing. She said that it was as if the character inhabited her body. She said that she was never able to achieve that level of perfection again. I think that she experienced that transcendant creative moment.
I have written one poem that strikes me the same way. It is powerful. It says exactly what I wanted it to, and it fits the sonnet form perfectly. I doubt that I will ever write such a good poem again.
Karen
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 22 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/30/2002 3:41 PM
Karen,
Please post it on our poetry board!!
Glor
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 22 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 4/30/2002 5:31 PM
Glor,
I would be happy to, but it doesn't have anything to do with the works of Mr. Tolkien. Would that be a problem?
Karen
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 22 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/3/2002 1:28 PM
I think Tolkien was makeing a point about the relationship between love and creation. Perhaps he was implying that we must not be possessive of what we create - that whatever is created is then outside our control, just as Aulë could not make the Dwarves alive, or Fëanor could not stop Melkor from taking the Silmarils, and the Teleri could not keep the White Ships from being burned. Nor could Varda keep her light-bearing trees. Yet in each case, the creator loved the creation.
I think also Tolkien saw an analogy between this and his own creation of works about Middle-earth.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 22 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/4/2002 1:32 PM
MysticMagycPony: What a worthy goal in life. If everyone aspired to that, what a peaceful place the world would be. I wish you the best if fulfilling your goal.
Azirite, you make an interesting point "that we must not be possessive of what we create - that whatever is created is then outside our control"
The posts in this thread emphasize relationships as that which many of you prize most. As DaleAnn pointed out, those in ME who poured their hearts into things (as opposed to relationships, character qualities) came to a bad end. In the Silmarillion, those who poured their hearts into things lost them. It seems clear that we do not want to be to heavily tied to "things." Then again, we can lose loved ones, too, as some are so painfully aware. So maybe MysticMagycPony has got it when she chooses her character to pour her heart into. No one can ever take that from her, can they?
The work of art I pour my heart into is raising my daughter. She was born when I was very young, and I have tried hard not to let my youth and inexperience compromise her. When I see her achieve I am proud, and I am prouder still when I see her do the right thing, hold her head up when she is under fire, and try again when she fails. It is a miracle to me that children survive the errors of their parents. (I sympathize with Finwe!)
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 22 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/5/2002 9:11 PM
I have thought about this question very seriously. It was not easy to answer either! I was looking for something tangible that I could give credit to myself for creating! I was thinking about things to hold in your hand or admire from afar such as a piece of artwork or a craft. I stayed away from the obvious choice of family (children) because we all hold those dear anyway. I was looking for something that I had done myself.….and bang! It has been staring me in the face every day!
The thing that I hold most dear is what Storm and I have done together as a team.
First of all, to begin with, I was not the best horsewoman in the world! I couldn’t sit the seat properly and was bouncing all over banging around on top of the horse. I hung onto the saddle horn (which is a No No for the most part in the horse world unless you are cutting cattle!).
When my kids started taking riding lessons, I learned a whole lot just by listening! No! You do not just get on the horse and bang your legs on either side and yell "Yee Hah!" to get them going. There are a lot of buttons and switches that you need to learn in order to tell the horse what to do!
Well, this very novice rider found this two year old filly that she liked and decided she wanted her! A beginner rider and an untrained horse are not a very good combination! They each don’t know nuthin! So it is like the blind leading the blind!
Lucky for me, Storm is a very patient and forgiving horse. She puts up with all of my mistakes and tries really hard to learn what I am trying to tell her. And many things I told her were confusing her because I did not know how to train a horse let alone ride one very well!
So I decided the two of us were going to take riding/training lessons from the lady who taught my kids to ride. With her wonderful teaching abilities, Storm and I have finally learned how to communicate with each other and to become a team.
I sit the seat properly now, Storm thanks me for that! I know how to tell Storm to side pass, change leads, collect herself, go fast or slow, headset, do flying lead changes, turn sharp, move off my legs, or reins, and so many more I just can’t think of them now but will know them when I need them!
We are a team! We have a great bond and respect for each other. We trust each other and we look good when we are out riding! Two "without a clue" beings becoming a team with much hard work and effort. That is the thing that I hold dear to my heart. And I thank our trainer so much for all the knowledge and confidence she gave us.
Stormrider
I'm glad that all of your family has something that can do together.