Post by Andorinha on Jan 19, 2009 5:22:40 GMT -6
Week three - House of Finwe
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 19 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/27/2002 6:51 PM
Finwe, Muriel, Indis, Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin, etc.
What traits have we seen in these individuals, and in this family collectively. We've discussed Feanor (and there's lots more that could be said about him - keep it coming), but what about Finwe? What are the personality traits in him that set up this family?
Muriel asks to be held blameless in all that follows her death. But is she?
Are all the flaws in this family found in Feanor, or do Fingolfin and Finarfin have a share?
What have you noticed so far in their children?
Are you surprised by the character of the young Galadriel, or is she what you expected?
Answer any or all of the above...
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/28/2002 9:52 AM
Megn great questions really thought provoking. I feel the common thread in the house of Finwe is PRIDE. Too much pride to go back to Valinor even when they realized they were mistaken. How do you disentangle yourself from a misguided leader without seeming disloyal? Also they were all tough as nails especially the ones betrayed by Feanor who had to cross the ice waste that would be an epic in itelf yet it is barely mentioned too bad. I find myself pitying yet envying the house of Finwe because even though they were seperated from Valinor they formed thier own beauty and tragedy.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 19 in Discussion
From: CamelliaDanderfluff
Sent: 4/28/2002 8:09 PM
Megn1 asks if Miriel should indeed be held blameless for what follows her death. Exactly what did she die of? Not slain, then grief? Why would she leave Finwe & marvelous new son ? Did she choose to die? Is there somewhere else to find this out? Did she have premomition of what followed her death? I'm surprised no one else has questioned this. I'm anxious to read replies.
____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 19 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/1/2002 9:50 PM
Camellia,
What we're told is that "in the bearing of her son [Feanor] Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living." She says "Never again shall I bear child; for the strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor."
So I guess she died of weariness.
Was Feanor, even in utero, such a fiery spirit that he drained his mother of energy? Or was there something in her that longed to great a great child, adn poured all of herself into one? She asks to be held blameless. Is that because it truly was beyond her power, or because she meant it for good (she is blameless in intent)?
Rivers,
You say PRIDE defines the house of Finwe. But is that a characteristic of Finwe himself? Somehow I don't think so. What is it in him that sets the stage for this first of dysfunctional families?
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/2/2002 2:43 AM
Megn Finwe was stuffed with Pride rather than admit his favorite son was wrong and try to redress the situation over the Silmarils and the Valar. He went into exile with his son and basically left the remainder of his family. So in essence Finwe's pride in his wonderful son which could do no wrong is a precourser for Feanor's actions with the Silmarils.
Finwe- Feanor = Feanor-Silmarils.
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 19 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/2/2002 10:38 AM
Interesting parallel, Rivers. I guess I see Finwe differently (and I admit I'm projecting a lot of personal "father" stuff on him).
I see him as unwilling to take a stand. The ultimate wishy-washy, try-to-please-everybody kind of person. I can just hear him say to his sons "now, let's all just get along together, o.k.?" He's not proud of Feanor, he's intimidated by him. He's never had the ability to say no to any of his kids.
I'd love to hear what others think about Finwe. And what about Fingolfin and Finarfin? Is pride their issue, too? Finarfin ultimately comes back to Valinor. How would you describe him?
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 19 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 5/2/2002 1:23 PM
Megan,
I don't know whether Finwe was overly prideful of Feanor; however, I do think that Feanor was the favored son. I think that, perhaps Finwe's "sin" was of loving Feanor so much that he refused to discipline him. Likewise, I think that he loved Feanor so much that he neglected his other two sons.
Karen
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/3/2002 12:58 PM
I think the 'flaw' in the house of Finwë came from individual deeds, not their natures. Fëanor was intelligent, creative and capable of great leadership - but was too attched to his own works to see beyond his own interests. A personal failing, not a family trait. I think Fëanor was the least compromising of the family, but that strength of purpose could also be a good thing in a leader.
Father-son ties are exceptionally strong in Tolkien's works and I don't think we need to conclude that Fëanor's character flaws arose because Finwë loved him and overindulged him. I think Fëanor's pride, stubbornness and rashness were the flip side of his intelligence and creativity - great strengths and great weaknesses existing in the same being. It's like the make-up of Melkor's nature: that the exceptionally gifted are also exceptionally flawed.
namaste,
Azurite
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/3/2002 2:32 PM
Azurite perhaps you can tell me how we can seperate our actions from our nature. It is our nature that is the basis for our actions. If Feanor wasn't overly proud and extremely possesive about the silmarils what was he? Yes he had the ability to be a great leader only he wouldn't ask for or give help to anyone. I'm sorry but I believe he was arrogant and extremely filled with pride over his accomplishments. In fact he was so selfish he made his sons repeat an oath at his death so that His children would either die or take back His precious, thats right precious Silmarils. It is a shame that two beautiful and hallowed objects the trees of Valinor would take part in such a tragedy. It smacks to me of the hunger for the one ring but instead of Power they are coveting Beauty and Avarice.I never blamed Finwe for Feanor, Feanor was responsible for his part however Finwe was responsible for the rift between his children due to his actions insted of healing the breach he deepened it. Feanor was not some great individual who should be admired he was selfish, inconsiderate, a dislyal to the point of theft and murder. It takes more than having the right abilities to be great.You have to use them in the correct manner. It is not enough to be strong, smart and charming. The prisons are filled with people fitting this description. Feanor lacked character and without it he was a petty self indulgent murdering thief who scorned the very people he owed his ability to.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/7/2002 8:40 AM
What I meant, Rivers, is that one's actions are not predetermined by genetic heritage or Fate or upbringing. My interpretation of Tolkien's view of a pereson's nature is that they can choose right or wrong, and whether they choose one way or the other is not determined by outside forces. Fëanor could have used his gifts more wisely. Moreover, his use os his talents was not because he was Finwë's son - I don't think we can see Finwë's love of Fëanor as a flaw. It was one of the nicer traits of them both.
Fëanor was overly proud about the Silmarils - that was my point.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 19 in Discussion
From: Nufaciel
Sent: 5/7/2002 8:48 AM
I don't think that Miriel should be held blameless for all that happened. She left her body by choice, and her body was not slain by another. She left Feanor when he was very young, and when she was given the chance to return, she did not want it. Once she decided this, Finwe remarried, much to the resentment of Feanor, which meant that Miriel could never return. There is more to this story, and there are other reasons I think this, but because they are not mentioned here in The Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings, I cannot explain them.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/7/2002 9:34 AM
I think Megn's statement that the unborn Fëanor drained his mother's energy is exactly what happened. He was born with such a strong spirit that he consumed her. No, I wouldn't blame her for what happened - I think she said this because she was afraid for the future, afraid for what might become of Fëanor.
namaste,
Azurite
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/9/2002 8:00 AM
Azurite I am gong to have to disagree with you. I think that environment and genetics go a long way in determining the way people turn out. I'm not saying that it makes all your decisions for you but it a least affects the way you behave. If Finwe didn't show such devotion to Feanor alone and place him far and away above the rest of his siblings perhaps he would have learned to play well with others and not been such a jerk. I also think that pride was a family trait for the entire house especially Feanor's Sons who wore thier defiance of the Valar like a badge of honor and isn't it strange that they for the most part didn't get along with anyone but themselves.Hmmm............
Rivers
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 19 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 5/9/2002 10:20 AM
I think that if you want to get into the psychosis of Feanor's actions, one has to look at the beginning. It's plainly obvious that things went downhill when Finwe remarried into the Vanyar - "The Vala Chosen".
It has been mentioned previously in this thread concerning a strong father-son bond between Finwe and Feanor. I believe otherwise. Possibly on the surface we saw the "warm fuzzies" but I believe that Feanor's resentment for his father's second marriage was the root cause for everything ... a stepmother he probably couldn't stand the sight of, a host of resented half-brothers to compete with, and so forth.
Did he hate his father? You decide.
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/9/2002 12:45 PM
In real life, Rivers, I agree with you that unbringing and genetics determine behaviour - but it's a complex issue and I wouldn't want to sort out how it works with any given individual.
I think however that Tolkien, in his book and in his world, is giving the emphasis to free will.
I think Fëanor loved his father and resented the others in his father's family. Yes, this is selfish, but Fëanor was a self-centred individual.
namaste,
Azurite
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 19 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 5/9/2002 5:25 PM
Algamesh,
I don't think Feanor can be pinned down as either loveing or hateing anybody except himself. In his marrage there was little there except for the act of breeding. In all his ineractions throughout he seems self motivated and self absorbed. I think he had little or no respect for his father and yet his father choose to go into exile with him to Formenos. It was when Feanor's father remarried a great rift arose between father and son that he(his father) was forever trying to amend to his very end. Such devotion in one so mighty for another, in this case Feanor would more than likley only breed contempt and an even greater lack of respect. It put Feanor in charge of the fates of the Noldor even before his fathers demise. Does grovelling ever help?
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 17 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/10/2002 2:52 AM
Azurite dangit you can't just come out and agree with me its simply not fair we were having a splendid debate. lol I think you want free will in your ME and I want black and white with no grey area in mine. So if were gonna shake hands and join forces I will give Finwe a break and you have to acknowledge Feanor was a bum. Now I've got to find another post of yours to disagree with somewhere else. Where do you stand on the Frodo vs. Sam issue?
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 18 of 19 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 5/11/2002 3:14 PM
rivers
Azurite dangit you can't just come out and agree with me its simply not fair we were having a splendid debate. lol <snipped> Now I've got to find another post of yours to disagree with somewhere else. Where do you stand on the Frodo vs. Sam issue?
HAHAHA.....this has shades of that infamous twosome! (runnin' an' duckin')
Soleil
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 19 of 19 in Discussion
Sent: 11/6/2002 12:19 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 19 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/27/2002 6:51 PM
Finwe, Muriel, Indis, Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin, etc.
What traits have we seen in these individuals, and in this family collectively. We've discussed Feanor (and there's lots more that could be said about him - keep it coming), but what about Finwe? What are the personality traits in him that set up this family?
Muriel asks to be held blameless in all that follows her death. But is she?
Are all the flaws in this family found in Feanor, or do Fingolfin and Finarfin have a share?
What have you noticed so far in their children?
Are you surprised by the character of the young Galadriel, or is she what you expected?
Answer any or all of the above...
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/28/2002 9:52 AM
Megn great questions really thought provoking. I feel the common thread in the house of Finwe is PRIDE. Too much pride to go back to Valinor even when they realized they were mistaken. How do you disentangle yourself from a misguided leader without seeming disloyal? Also they were all tough as nails especially the ones betrayed by Feanor who had to cross the ice waste that would be an epic in itelf yet it is barely mentioned too bad. I find myself pitying yet envying the house of Finwe because even though they were seperated from Valinor they formed thier own beauty and tragedy.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 19 in Discussion
From: CamelliaDanderfluff
Sent: 4/28/2002 8:09 PM
Megn1 asks if Miriel should indeed be held blameless for what follows her death. Exactly what did she die of? Not slain, then grief? Why would she leave Finwe & marvelous new son ? Did she choose to die? Is there somewhere else to find this out? Did she have premomition of what followed her death? I'm surprised no one else has questioned this. I'm anxious to read replies.
____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 19 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/1/2002 9:50 PM
Camellia,
What we're told is that "in the bearing of her son [Feanor] Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living." She says "Never again shall I bear child; for the strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor."
So I guess she died of weariness.
Was Feanor, even in utero, such a fiery spirit that he drained his mother of energy? Or was there something in her that longed to great a great child, adn poured all of herself into one? She asks to be held blameless. Is that because it truly was beyond her power, or because she meant it for good (she is blameless in intent)?
Rivers,
You say PRIDE defines the house of Finwe. But is that a characteristic of Finwe himself? Somehow I don't think so. What is it in him that sets the stage for this first of dysfunctional families?
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/2/2002 2:43 AM
Megn Finwe was stuffed with Pride rather than admit his favorite son was wrong and try to redress the situation over the Silmarils and the Valar. He went into exile with his son and basically left the remainder of his family. So in essence Finwe's pride in his wonderful son which could do no wrong is a precourser for Feanor's actions with the Silmarils.
Finwe- Feanor = Feanor-Silmarils.
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 19 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/2/2002 10:38 AM
Interesting parallel, Rivers. I guess I see Finwe differently (and I admit I'm projecting a lot of personal "father" stuff on him).
I see him as unwilling to take a stand. The ultimate wishy-washy, try-to-please-everybody kind of person. I can just hear him say to his sons "now, let's all just get along together, o.k.?" He's not proud of Feanor, he's intimidated by him. He's never had the ability to say no to any of his kids.
I'd love to hear what others think about Finwe. And what about Fingolfin and Finarfin? Is pride their issue, too? Finarfin ultimately comes back to Valinor. How would you describe him?
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 19 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 5/2/2002 1:23 PM
Megan,
I don't know whether Finwe was overly prideful of Feanor; however, I do think that Feanor was the favored son. I think that, perhaps Finwe's "sin" was of loving Feanor so much that he refused to discipline him. Likewise, I think that he loved Feanor so much that he neglected his other two sons.
Karen
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/3/2002 12:58 PM
I think the 'flaw' in the house of Finwë came from individual deeds, not their natures. Fëanor was intelligent, creative and capable of great leadership - but was too attched to his own works to see beyond his own interests. A personal failing, not a family trait. I think Fëanor was the least compromising of the family, but that strength of purpose could also be a good thing in a leader.
Father-son ties are exceptionally strong in Tolkien's works and I don't think we need to conclude that Fëanor's character flaws arose because Finwë loved him and overindulged him. I think Fëanor's pride, stubbornness and rashness were the flip side of his intelligence and creativity - great strengths and great weaknesses existing in the same being. It's like the make-up of Melkor's nature: that the exceptionally gifted are also exceptionally flawed.
namaste,
Azurite
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/3/2002 2:32 PM
Azurite perhaps you can tell me how we can seperate our actions from our nature. It is our nature that is the basis for our actions. If Feanor wasn't overly proud and extremely possesive about the silmarils what was he? Yes he had the ability to be a great leader only he wouldn't ask for or give help to anyone. I'm sorry but I believe he was arrogant and extremely filled with pride over his accomplishments. In fact he was so selfish he made his sons repeat an oath at his death so that His children would either die or take back His precious, thats right precious Silmarils. It is a shame that two beautiful and hallowed objects the trees of Valinor would take part in such a tragedy. It smacks to me of the hunger for the one ring but instead of Power they are coveting Beauty and Avarice.I never blamed Finwe for Feanor, Feanor was responsible for his part however Finwe was responsible for the rift between his children due to his actions insted of healing the breach he deepened it. Feanor was not some great individual who should be admired he was selfish, inconsiderate, a dislyal to the point of theft and murder. It takes more than having the right abilities to be great.You have to use them in the correct manner. It is not enough to be strong, smart and charming. The prisons are filled with people fitting this description. Feanor lacked character and without it he was a petty self indulgent murdering thief who scorned the very people he owed his ability to.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/7/2002 8:40 AM
What I meant, Rivers, is that one's actions are not predetermined by genetic heritage or Fate or upbringing. My interpretation of Tolkien's view of a pereson's nature is that they can choose right or wrong, and whether they choose one way or the other is not determined by outside forces. Fëanor could have used his gifts more wisely. Moreover, his use os his talents was not because he was Finwë's son - I don't think we can see Finwë's love of Fëanor as a flaw. It was one of the nicer traits of them both.
Fëanor was overly proud about the Silmarils - that was my point.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 19 in Discussion
From: Nufaciel
Sent: 5/7/2002 8:48 AM
I don't think that Miriel should be held blameless for all that happened. She left her body by choice, and her body was not slain by another. She left Feanor when he was very young, and when she was given the chance to return, she did not want it. Once she decided this, Finwe remarried, much to the resentment of Feanor, which meant that Miriel could never return. There is more to this story, and there are other reasons I think this, but because they are not mentioned here in The Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings, I cannot explain them.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/7/2002 9:34 AM
I think Megn's statement that the unborn Fëanor drained his mother's energy is exactly what happened. He was born with such a strong spirit that he consumed her. No, I wouldn't blame her for what happened - I think she said this because she was afraid for the future, afraid for what might become of Fëanor.
namaste,
Azurite
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/9/2002 8:00 AM
Azurite I am gong to have to disagree with you. I think that environment and genetics go a long way in determining the way people turn out. I'm not saying that it makes all your decisions for you but it a least affects the way you behave. If Finwe didn't show such devotion to Feanor alone and place him far and away above the rest of his siblings perhaps he would have learned to play well with others and not been such a jerk. I also think that pride was a family trait for the entire house especially Feanor's Sons who wore thier defiance of the Valar like a badge of honor and isn't it strange that they for the most part didn't get along with anyone but themselves.Hmmm............
Rivers
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 19 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 5/9/2002 10:20 AM
I think that if you want to get into the psychosis of Feanor's actions, one has to look at the beginning. It's plainly obvious that things went downhill when Finwe remarried into the Vanyar - "The Vala Chosen".
It has been mentioned previously in this thread concerning a strong father-son bond between Finwe and Feanor. I believe otherwise. Possibly on the surface we saw the "warm fuzzies" but I believe that Feanor's resentment for his father's second marriage was the root cause for everything ... a stepmother he probably couldn't stand the sight of, a host of resented half-brothers to compete with, and so forth.
Did he hate his father? You decide.
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 19 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/9/2002 12:45 PM
In real life, Rivers, I agree with you that unbringing and genetics determine behaviour - but it's a complex issue and I wouldn't want to sort out how it works with any given individual.
I think however that Tolkien, in his book and in his world, is giving the emphasis to free will.
I think Fëanor loved his father and resented the others in his father's family. Yes, this is selfish, but Fëanor was a self-centred individual.
namaste,
Azurite
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 19 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 5/9/2002 5:25 PM
Algamesh,
I don't think Feanor can be pinned down as either loveing or hateing anybody except himself. In his marrage there was little there except for the act of breeding. In all his ineractions throughout he seems self motivated and self absorbed. I think he had little or no respect for his father and yet his father choose to go into exile with him to Formenos. It was when Feanor's father remarried a great rift arose between father and son that he(his father) was forever trying to amend to his very end. Such devotion in one so mighty for another, in this case Feanor would more than likley only breed contempt and an even greater lack of respect. It put Feanor in charge of the fates of the Noldor even before his fathers demise. Does grovelling ever help?
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 17 of 19 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/10/2002 2:52 AM
Azurite dangit you can't just come out and agree with me its simply not fair we were having a splendid debate. lol I think you want free will in your ME and I want black and white with no grey area in mine. So if were gonna shake hands and join forces I will give Finwe a break and you have to acknowledge Feanor was a bum. Now I've got to find another post of yours to disagree with somewhere else. Where do you stand on the Frodo vs. Sam issue?
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 18 of 19 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 5/11/2002 3:14 PM
rivers
Azurite dangit you can't just come out and agree with me its simply not fair we were having a splendid debate. lol <snipped> Now I've got to find another post of yours to disagree with somewhere else. Where do you stand on the Frodo vs. Sam issue?
HAHAHA.....this has shades of that infamous twosome! (runnin' an' duckin')
Soleil
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 19 of 19 in Discussion
Sent: 11/6/2002 12:19 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.