Wk 12 Bk6 Ch7: Gandalf's Departure

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 6/12/2003 9:39 PM

Gandalf, One of the Istari
Copyright John Howe. All Rights Reserved
http:..john-howe.com

When the hobbits recalled Sam's vision from Galadriel's Mirror, they wanted to return to the Shire to see what they would find. They suspected Lotho to be at the bottom of it. However, Gandalf reminded them that Saruman had an interest in the Shire long before Mordor had.

Then Gandalf tells them: "I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so."

I couldn't help feeling sad that I would not see Gandalf any longer. I had really grown to love the old guy! This was a real let down for me! But Tolkien did not indicate that the hobbits protested this decision!

Do you think the hobbits were uneasy that Gandalf would not be there to help out or do you think they felt confident that they could handle Shire problems?

Do you think they were disappointed Gandalf was leaving?

Or do you think they had become accustomed to his dropping in and out of their lives and just took it with a grain of salt?

What do you think Gandalf and Tom Bombadil would discuss?

Like Frodo, did you hope that the hobbits would see Bombadil again?

Was Gandalf's departure symbolizing the old making way for the new?

[Stormrider]

From: Kendal Sent: 8/18/2003 3:25 AM
Bunches of stuff to work with here, Stormrider! I'll just flirt with a couple of your questions:

RE: "What do you think Gandalf and Tom Bombadil would discuss?"

In the House of Bombadil:

Gandalf: "Ok, Tom, now then, just who ARE you anyway? No, don't give me that 'enigma wrapped up in a paradox nonsense', I really want to know!" and here the wizard paused to let a long cloud of grey smoke take its shape in the air between them as a large 'question mark.' "I mean I've always hoped you were at least a fragment of Eru himself placed here to enjoy on a more familiar level this Middle-earth you let us help you form."

Tom: "Well now, you impertinent young wizardling, why do you think I owe you, or anyone an explanation? Mayhaps I'm just a jolly, old genius locus, a sentient representation of nature, a sort of shaggy spirit of the wild. Or I could even be a transposed doll of some outlandish origin, anachronistically tumbled down here into the Tales of Middle-earth as something of a cosmic jest. Now if, I were indeed some aspect of great Eru, don't you think that demanding my 'credentials' is a rather cheeky act? Dangerous too!" And with a short quick breath of his exhaled air he beat poor Gandalf's tall-crowned hat down upon his ears with the wizard's hanging, question mark of smoke...

2. RE: "Or do you think they had become accustomed to his dropping in and out of their lives and just took it with a grain of salt?"

Of course, the way Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, part of the quest was for Bilbo to mature into a self-acctuating, responsible "adult." He is whirlled out of his familiar, mundane existence into a fairy story epic, and after achieving fairy-story stature himself, he drops back into the every day life of the Shire (somewhat augmented) and has to deal with everyday life and its problems there AS a Hobbit.

I think this theme is continued in LotR, with the Four Hobbits of Errantry going through a similar program of "maturation." By the time they reach the Shire, they are all ready to take their own affairs into their own hands and effect a Hobbit styled answer to the troubles they find in the four farthings of their own world.

What I wonder, is whether any of the Hobbits -- with the exception of a pained and distracted Frodo -- quite understood that Gandalf's "leave-taking" on the road was a harbinger of a longer leave-taking soon to come when many of the more "magical" aspects oif Middle-earth would be become permanently dimished, faded, or just plain gone? Our modern world sees its beginning with the unleashed fading that would now follow the destruction of the active power of all the Elven rings...

* * *

From: Fangorn Sent: 8/18/2003 4:03 AM
I find it hard to rectify the fact, that Gandalf, (or Olorin if you wish), being a Maiar, if not already totally familiar with Iarwain-ben-adar, has great knowledge of him. So what would they talk about? I dunno........fast times at Numenor High?

Gandalf himself is either a clever writers tool, or an enigma as Kendal said, to bring us further along an evolutionary tract. What better way to introduce the changing times, then for an old, aging icon to push it along? I wonder, if we remove Gandalf totally from the story, would it still move along properly? I think it might, in fact, I wonder, how many characters are actually dispensable to the story as a whole?

* * *

From: Illadria Sent: 8/18/2003 9:12 AM
Do you think they were disappointed Gandalf was leaving? Or do you think they had become accustomed to his dropping in and out of their lives and just took it with a grain of salt?

~ Absolutely! They loved the old Wizard. Yes, I do think they were used to his coming and going, but I don't believe that means that they are unaffected by this. There is sadness in his departure, and joy in his return.

Do you think the hobbits were uneasy that Gandalf would not be there to help out or do you think they felt confident that they could handle Shire problems?

~ I think they were confident, though I don't know if they would've felt that way if they'ed known the extent of the trouble. I think that the main reason they were so confident of their ability to deal without Gandalf was because of his fall in Moria.
The hobbits had experienced much that made them strong, confident men. In loosing Gandalfthey learned that they could survive without him, and that they could even be strong
without him.

Like Frodo, did you hope that the hobbits would see Bombadil again?

~ Of course!

Was Gandalf's departure symbolizing the old making way for the new?

"I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set
things to rights, nor to help folk to do so."

~ That's exactly what it sounds like. But also, perhaps more. Perhaps it also symbolizes the end the involvement of the Ainur with mortals. It's not that they don't care or want to help, but it is time for the elves to leave - and when the elves leave, Middle-Earth will belong to the mortals. The mortals are growing. They've been given the skills and knowledge to survive and flourish, now it is time for the Ainur to step aside and let them.

What do you think Gandalf and Tom Bombadil would discuss?

~ I always thought they were probably discussing the changes in Middle-earth. As long as there was the evil of the Ainur (Melkor, Sauron, Saruman) still in Middle-Earth they would be needed there. But with those guys defeated, it was now time for them to leave and let the mortals have Middle-Earth.