BookII Chap1: Many Meetings

[MajahTR]

Yes, I did it again. This is a commentary thread. I invite you to post your comments to the chapter.

Did you notice the collective sigh of relief as I did when Gandalf first spoke? Gandalf is here and everything will be alright.
This early section of the chapter reminds me greatly of chapter 2. Frodo sure asks a lot of questions. Thank Goodness that Gandalf knows the answers!

Language has Power. When the Hobbits meet in the garden, Pippen exclaims, "Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!" Gandalf then berates him for using the term in Rivendell. Then Gandalf says "The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the Master of the Dark Tower of Mordor…." Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. LOL

At the feast Frodo appears so small and ordinary compared to the others there that Tolkien describes -- Gandalf, Elrond, Glorfindel, Arwen and even Gloin. Frodo feels out of place among these personages of high grandeur. I'm sure Tolkien intended us to see it this way. Frodo is separated from the other Hobbits and in my opinion this heightens his smallness, even next to a Dwarf.

I like that Tolkien takes the time to tell us what happened to the other characters of The Hobbit through Gloin. He spends some time also describing the city of Dale, which when we last saw it, it was a deserted ruin. I especially like that since I've always had thisincredible fondness for that city.

When Frodo talks to Bilbo, Bilbo mentions that "Time doesn't seem to pass here: it just is." Often in folklore, Time in Fairie is suspended or different. We will see a comment about this again when the Fellowship leaves Lothlorien.

Frodo sees Bilbo as a wrinkled hungry thing with groping hands. Frodo wanted to strike him. This is evidence of the Ring gaining power over Frodo. Bilbo now provides us with a link between Frodo and Gollum. It makes it easier to see that Gollum was a type of Hobbit originally.

The exchange between Lindir and Bilbo at the end of The Song of Earindel is a very telling one. "It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals." A definite sign of racism there.

Earlier, I noticed that when describing Elrond at the feast, Tolkien says that his eyes held a light like the light of stars. Then as Frodo and Bilbo were leaving the feast, he says that a star shone on Aragorn's breast. Remember that star is a metaphor for goodness.
For the first time Tolkien, as narrator, uses the name Aragorn. This is significant because his status has changed in Frodo's eyes.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel --- an elven song. Sam remembers this after the fight with Shelob and recites a few lines, but not in the order given here. Calling on Iarwain or another who is well versed in Elvish languages: What is the exact translation?
DA

---

DA wrote: Frodo sees Bilbo as a wrinkled hungry thing with groping hands. Frodo wanted to strike him. This is evidence of the Ring gaining power over Frodo. Bilbo now provides us with a link between Frodo and Gollum. It makes it easier to see that Gollum was a type of Hobbit originally.

Very cool observation. So Bilbo had begun to look like Gollum, is that what you mean?

DA wrote: The exchange between Lindir and Bilbo at the end of The Song of Earindel is a very telling one. "It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals." A definite sign of racism there.

Sort of 'All mortals look alike to me'?

Now DA, I swear I'm not getting into a whole color thing here. But! When Glorfindel leaves a marker for the Hobbits, he leaves a green beryl. In this chapter, shortly after the Earindil poem, Bilbo tells Frodo that it turned out Bilbo wrote all the words himself, 'Except that Aragorn insisted on my putting in a green stone. He seemed to think it important. I don't know why.' I guess he means the last line of the second verse: 'upon his breast an emerald.' So what do you think's going on with these green gems? Tolkien seems to have gone out of his way to make a point of them.
Diana

---

Not only that Amaranth, both Frodo and Aragorn...and probably others are also dressed in green. I am aware that Elves prefer earth tones but for Tolkien to mention green a number of times in this chapter...may mean something...anybody have a guess?
DA

---

The green jewel left by Glorfindel is but a simple token, but the one in which Aragorn insists on adding to Earendil's poem of Bilbo's is quite an interesting device, and is one of my favorite of Tolkien's little known and covered up faux pas. In the following weeks we will get to "Farewell to Lórien", and on page 391 Galadriel will give Aragorn a green gem set in a silver brooch shaped as an Eagle with out streached wings. It is refered to as the Elfstone of the house of Elendil, one of the heirlooms which Aragorn is destined to receive and has been passed down through Galadriel to Celebrian, and finally to Arwen. Okay a bit more background Elessar is Quenya for Elfstone which can be found in "The houses of the Healing" 139. So you say big deal he has a green rock at the end of the tale! So here is the kicker the Original Elfstone was a great, green, healing,stone made in Gondolin for Idril Celebrindel who gave it to her son Earendil! hence Aragorn insistence upon adding it to Bilbo's poem. Anyone see the problem? How could Aragorn get a stone that is possesed by Earendil (he wore it on his journey to Valanor to plead for help) who has flown in Vingilot since before the land of gift Numenor was ever created. Hmmmmmm. However in the index of "The Unfinished Tales" on page 441 Christopher suggest Aragorn's stone might be another, yet I think Tolkien's intent was to link the family story with the one jewel. To bad Tolkien didn't live long enough to revise this delemma.
So DA does this excuse my long recess?
Namárië,
Iarwain

---

Iarwain, YOU are a gem! Thank you!
Diana

[MajahTR]

> Not only that Amaranth, both Frodo and Aragorn...and probably others are
> also dressed in green. I am aware that Elves prefer earth tones but for
> Tolkien to mention green a number of times in this chapter...may mean
> something...anybody have a guess?

I was thinking "hope." I was thinking of that as they start down the
Anduin. On the western side, there's still green grass and trees, while
the eastern side (towards Mordor) it's barren. And the very fact that
they're still traveling in winter, and when spring starts -- when the earth
turns green -- Frodo and Sam will be in Mordor, and the others in battle.

That may be pushing things, though!
Diana

---

DA wrote: Frodo sees Bilbo as a wrinkled hungry thing with groping hands. Frodo wanted to strike him. This is evidence of the Ring gaining power over Frodo. Bilbo now provides us with a link between Frodo and Gollum.

In the book Meditations on Middle Earth Michael Swanwick (in a wonderful essay called "A Changeling Returns"--I highly recommend it. Good food for thought, although it may destroy a few illusions.) has this to say about Sam, Frodo and Gollum:

But then, as {Frodo} travels deeper into the heart of the matter, headed for Mordor, that perpetual dark night of the soul, he grows more and more passive, falls more and more silent. The abusiness, for good and ill, or being the protagonist is perforce shouldered by his two talkative (they are needed to distract from his silence) companions, Sam and Gollum.
Sam and Gollum are interesting characters. But they are not completely comprehensible unless you realize that they are both aspects of Frodo. Taken in isolation, Sam is simply too good to be believed. He never shirks, never sulks, never gives a single thought to himself, unless it's of reproach for not having done well enough. His every action is motivated by love. He is (or becomes) the externalization of all that is best in Frodo.... Samwise Gamgee, the child who ran away from home hoping the see an oliphant, returns to the Shire as a man with the strength and decency needed to take his place in the community, and raise a family.
Where Sam is the Good Boy, Gollum is the Bad. It is not mere coincidence that Gollum is himself a fallen hobbit, nor that he and Sam unfalteringly hate each other. He has the Ring-bearer's determination, resourcefulness, and perseverence, though in a misguided cause. He is what Frodo would become, were he to surrender to the lure of the Ring. But since he is really a part of Frodo, he is not entirely evil, but only as evil as such a hero can be.

I don't agree with his premise--I doubt if this was what Tolkien was intending his characters to represent--but it certainly made me think about these characters in a different light. And perhaps it explains why (in regards to that long ago debate about who is really the hero) I cannot accept Sam as a "hero." He is too good to be believed--not a "complete" character but a "type" of the good, trustworthy, loyal friend. (I don't dislike him DA! Please don't kick me off the board! ) For my taste, heroes seem to be more conflicted characters than Sam is capable of being.
MusicMom

---

When I first saw the Movie FotR... I couldn't quite place why they chose to have Bilbo turn into that creature as he groped for the ring. I passed by that passage by in "Many Meetings" by without thinking about it much over the years. I went home that night after I saw the movie to look back to see why the moviemakers did that... it was "one of those...Jump out of your seat moments in the movie. My kids (who had not read to that part of the book yet) asked if Bilbo going to turn into a Gollum-like creature. I read to them that part:

"...he found that he was no longer looking at Bilbo; a shadow seemed to have follen between the, and he found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands."

We concluded:
1. The Shadow - (it seems the evil of the ring can even be exercised in Rivendell) caused Frodo to see Bilbo in this way.
2. Bilbo did not "physically change" into this creature before Frodo's eyes - he "preceived" Bilbo that way because of the Ring's influence on him.
HOWEVER...
3. Bilbo did show his disire to have it back, so there may be a little "green man" deep inside...

A bit of a spoiler (I did not share with my kids who don't know the end) - We know that a (The One) Ring bearer (even after they don't have possession of it) carry the burden of it the rest of their lives...
Luthien (Sarah)

---

Luthien, My take on this incident between Frodo and Bilbo was exactly what you describe. Fodo's own vision caused the change in Bilbo. Still, I find how the movie showed this scene very interesting.
Fallo