Post by MajahTR on Jan 20, 2009 7:52:55 GMT -6
We read a description of the city of Caras Galadon. The Mallorn are "living towers". (For an instant, I see Minas Tirith in my mind's eye.) Trees: rooted in earth but, the crowns near heaven.
We meet Celeborn and Galadriel. No other character's evolution intrigues me more than that of Galadriel. Her role started out as hardly more than decorative and through the revisions became one of the strongest characters of the trilogy and beyond. Even the mirror belonged to Celeborn in the beginning. Tolkien gave them a history within The Silmarillion which he fleshed out in Unfinished Tales.
Aragorn explains the fall of Gandalf. He states that "An evil of the Ancient World is seemed, such as I have never seen before." So though he had some sort of foreknowledge of Gandalf's peril should he enter Mordor he did not know what it would be.
Celeborn regrets his welcome to Gimli and is chided by Galadriel. Here she repeats the lines spoken by Gimli in a previous chapter: "Dark is the water of Kheled-zaram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nala, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dum in the Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone." The courtly love that Gimli bears for Galadriel begins as he states that she is fairer than all the jewels that are beneath the earth. Apparently Legolas has a change of heart toward the Dwarf also.
There is a thread on the Silmarillion board called "Week Five -The Long Defeat" that deserves another look. Take a few minutes to read it. I'll do my 'bump' trick to bring it back to the top. (Maj note* I have added "Week Five -The Long Defeat" thread to this study board.)
I've always been curious about the "tests" that Galadriel posed for the members of the fellowship. I want to know why it is that Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her gaze. We know that Sam blushed because he felt that he had nothing on and was given a choice to go back to the Shire. Merry had a similar experience but would not elaborate. The others would not either. Boromir was quick to point out that the men of Gondor were true to their word.
Time goes by. Frodo writes a Lament for Gandalf. His verses are serious and seem to really get to the essence of who Gandalf was. Sam, on the other hand, still saw Gandalf as a conjurer of fireworks and wishes that Frodo would add a verse about the fireworks.
As simple as Sam is, he does get right to the heart of the matter when it comes to Elves. "Whether they've made the land, or the land has made them, it's hard to say." But, what he would really like to see is Elf-magic. He gets a good dose of Elf Magic from Galadriel and her mirror. Lorien is not only the name of the place where they are now. It is the more common name of one of the Valar. According to Foster's Complete Guide to ME, "he is the Master of visions and dreams, and with Este [his spouse] he provides rest and recovery." So, it would seem natural for Lothlorien to contain a means for seeing visions.
Galadriel explains that the mirror can see the past, the present and the (possible) future. Sam sees the future at Cirith Ungol and the present in the Shire as it is getting despoiled. Galadriel makes the statement that "Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them." Now what this means I can't quite put into words correctly. Seeing the future and predestination (or Fate) are not necessarily the same.
Frodo's visions are more confusing. The first vision of Gandalf or Saruman is more confusing to him (and first time readers). The first ship in Frodo's visions remained confusing to me until I read somewhere (and I can't remember where at the moment) that the first ship of his vision is most likely Elendil's ship coming to ME from the ruin of Numenor. That is the vision of the past. Next is clearly Aragorn's ship coming to Minas Tirith. This is in the near future. The small ship twinkling with lights is Frodo's ship on the way to Aman. Then, Frodo sees the present in the roving of Sauron's Eye.
Galadriel now lets us know what Elrond only suspected. Once the Ring is destroyed, the power of the Elven rings will fade and thus the "Tides of Time will sweep [Lothlorien] away."
Some time ago, and it may have even been during the first B&N class, there was a discussion about this section of this chapter. I don't recall the exact subject of the thread; however the word "dwindle" came up. The entire passage in question is: "We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." At the time no one considered that dwindle has two meanings for Tolkien. The first meaning is that a group of people will diminish in number. This was the only accepted definition at the time of the thread. And it does make sense. The Elves that remain will become less in number. But, Tolkien also, used this word in a number of cases to describe individuals diminishing in stature. For instance, in the Prologue it states: "They [Hobbits] seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller." So, in the case of the above passage concerning the Elves, it could also mean that the Elves would become the short "Keebler" Elves we are more familiar with in the present. It was my purpose in tracking the word "dwindle" to make sure that everyone would give equal weight to the second definition. I will post my entire findings later. Fallohide, I hope I did not disappoint you with this simple purpose.
Galadriel faces a truly terrible choice. It isn't just simply choosing to take the Ring and become a Dark Queen, or not. It is the choice to allow whatever is to happen, happen or not. She risks Lothlorien in choosing not to take the Ring. The only way to continue to preserve her realm is to accept the Ring.
"The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls." Galadriel is speaking here of her internal struggle with the desire for the Ring. And then in rejecting the Ring finally after many years of thinking about possessing it, she passes the test and remains good. Is it a test she devised for herself or one that the Valar set up for her?
In the final section of the chapter, Frodo asks why he does not seem to have "power" when he puts on the Ring. Galadriel replies that he is "growing" to it and that with more determination of will, he will gain in power. I believe that Tolkien wants us to watch for this.
DA
My goodness, DA! There are so many "jools" here that I may have to find a dragon to set his ass upon it, lol.
Aragorn explains the fall of Gandalf. He states that "An evil of the Ancient World is seemed, such as I have never seen before." So though he had some sort of foreknowledge of Gandalf's peril should he enter Mordor he did not know what it would be.
I do not think Aragorn had foreknowledge of Gandalf's peril, just a wordly, ancestral intuition that the Balrog was an ancient evil.
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zaram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nala, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dum in the Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
I have two ideas about this one: 1) as a bearer of a ring of power, Galadriel could feel what was the heart and longing of the dwarf. 2) As a weilder of a ring of power, she had intuition in the hearts of dwarves, because they also possesed rings of power.
I want to know why it is that Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her gaze.
I think the answer lies in the purity of heart. Legolas, also being an Elf, shares the Elf heart and wisdom. Aragorn, being the Elf-stone, is also near to her in blood. They had nothing to hide, and could withstand her gaze the longest.
"Whether they've made the land, or the land has made them, it's hard to say."
I find this one of the most beautiful and touching lines in the entire trilogy. To really understand the elves, and their rebellion and subsequent move to Middle-earth, one needs merely to think deeply about this sentance.
"Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them."
I believe this to be a treatise in fate. To know your true fate and the job that lies ahead, is to trust that by accomplishing it, the future will become as it should. To turn away from this fate, is to allow these alternatives to take place because of your own folly in not trusting fate.
END OF PART 1
The entire passage in question is: "We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
I think there is a third "dwindle" Not just in numbers or stature as in size...but a dwindle in stature of importance. With the failing of the one ring, the others lose their power also. It seems to me the Elven rings did much to increase the power and stature of the Elves, and with their failure, the power of the Elves to command much of ME will fail also.
She risks Lothlorien in choosing not to take the Ring. The only way to continue to preserve her realm is to accept the Ring.
Big disagreement here. She realizes the Realm of Lothlorien cannot be saved either way. This is why she passes the test. To take the Ring would set up a Dark Queen, which she realizes would eventually made her realm evil, and it would fall. To see the ring destroyed would also end her power. Either way, Lorien is doomed.
"The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls." Galadriel is speaking here of her internal struggle with the desire for the Ring.
It may also be more than that. It could be a thought on the very creation of Melkor and evil.
Is it a test she devised for herself or one that the Valar set up for her?
I think both. It is a test she knows she must pass, and only then can the Valar accept her back as an errant ancestor of elves gone very wrong.
In the final section of the chapter, Frodo asks why he does not seem to have "power" when he puts on the Ring. Galadriel replies that he is "growing" to it and that with more determination of will, he will gain in power. I believe that Tolkien wants us to watch for this.
I also think that it is in Frodo's benefit, that his personality did not lead him to this conclusion already. He has no innate desire for power. This innocense I am sure is despised by the ring, much to it's chagrin.
Glor
I will make a feeble attempt to post on this thread. Just a reflection on the Chapter. I don't know much of the history that Iarwain Ben-adar speaks of in his reply, but can piece some of it together. You truly must have lived with ME a long time.
I will repeat my awe of Lothlorien. I identify with this refuge in my vocation. I work with 17-21 year olds that are behind in credits in finishing their high school education. Many come in down-trodden and lowly. We spend great deal of time filling the education gaps while helping to renew their confidence, self-esteem and self-reliance. So for me Lothlorien is a metaphor.
I wondered if anyone else identified with this.
As for my reflection of the chapter... it is excactly how I remembered it.
Galadriel shows great compassion and wisdom. She says she is not a counselor, and I would agree that in a tradional sense she would be correct. Those that gave counsel usually gave adivice. But modern counselors often avoid giving advice directly. They, like Galadriel counsel by ".. one way or the other"...(I'm also remembering what Frodo said to Gildor... don't go to the elves...for they will say both yes and no) instead modern counselors help you to see all the possible options including what you might gain/regret. It is up to choose the path to take. This approach to counsel builds confidence and self-reliance which is exactly what Frodo and Sam need to continue their perilous journey. In my opinion Galadriel is the best kind of counselor. Do you think Tolkien was trying to say this "between the lines?"
Luthien (Sarah)
Good insight Sarah. Tolkien may indeed be offering this between the lines. Tolkien's friend C.S. Lewis once said of his work LotR, that the series of dangers, then rests, help enrich the story. First the journey through the Old Forest and attack by Old Man Willow, then rest at Tom's house, then flight to the ford, and rest at Rivendell, then the flight through Moria, and rest at Lorien.
In each of these rest places they were given some sort of counsel, and gifts: the barrow-wight swords, the mithril coat and sting, and Galadriel's gifts.
Glor
Glor- Yes, I do see that. That also reflects real life too. We all need rest and restoring after long toil. I guess that also means we should help others along the way as our duty... Tolkien was among the very wise, don't you think(of course you do ;-) )?
Sarah
We meet Celeborn and Galadriel. No other character's evolution intrigues me more than that of Galadriel. Her role started out as hardly more than decorative and through the revisions became one of the strongest characters of the trilogy and beyond. Even the mirror belonged to Celeborn in the beginning. Tolkien gave them a history within The Silmarillion which he fleshed out in Unfinished Tales.
Aragorn explains the fall of Gandalf. He states that "An evil of the Ancient World is seemed, such as I have never seen before." So though he had some sort of foreknowledge of Gandalf's peril should he enter Mordor he did not know what it would be.
Celeborn regrets his welcome to Gimli and is chided by Galadriel. Here she repeats the lines spoken by Gimli in a previous chapter: "Dark is the water of Kheled-zaram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nala, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dum in the Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone." The courtly love that Gimli bears for Galadriel begins as he states that she is fairer than all the jewels that are beneath the earth. Apparently Legolas has a change of heart toward the Dwarf also.
There is a thread on the Silmarillion board called "Week Five -The Long Defeat" that deserves another look. Take a few minutes to read it. I'll do my 'bump' trick to bring it back to the top. (Maj note* I have added "Week Five -The Long Defeat" thread to this study board.)
I've always been curious about the "tests" that Galadriel posed for the members of the fellowship. I want to know why it is that Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her gaze. We know that Sam blushed because he felt that he had nothing on and was given a choice to go back to the Shire. Merry had a similar experience but would not elaborate. The others would not either. Boromir was quick to point out that the men of Gondor were true to their word.
Time goes by. Frodo writes a Lament for Gandalf. His verses are serious and seem to really get to the essence of who Gandalf was. Sam, on the other hand, still saw Gandalf as a conjurer of fireworks and wishes that Frodo would add a verse about the fireworks.
As simple as Sam is, he does get right to the heart of the matter when it comes to Elves. "Whether they've made the land, or the land has made them, it's hard to say." But, what he would really like to see is Elf-magic. He gets a good dose of Elf Magic from Galadriel and her mirror. Lorien is not only the name of the place where they are now. It is the more common name of one of the Valar. According to Foster's Complete Guide to ME, "he is the Master of visions and dreams, and with Este [his spouse] he provides rest and recovery." So, it would seem natural for Lothlorien to contain a means for seeing visions.
Galadriel explains that the mirror can see the past, the present and the (possible) future. Sam sees the future at Cirith Ungol and the present in the Shire as it is getting despoiled. Galadriel makes the statement that "Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them." Now what this means I can't quite put into words correctly. Seeing the future and predestination (or Fate) are not necessarily the same.
Frodo's visions are more confusing. The first vision of Gandalf or Saruman is more confusing to him (and first time readers). The first ship in Frodo's visions remained confusing to me until I read somewhere (and I can't remember where at the moment) that the first ship of his vision is most likely Elendil's ship coming to ME from the ruin of Numenor. That is the vision of the past. Next is clearly Aragorn's ship coming to Minas Tirith. This is in the near future. The small ship twinkling with lights is Frodo's ship on the way to Aman. Then, Frodo sees the present in the roving of Sauron's Eye.
Galadriel now lets us know what Elrond only suspected. Once the Ring is destroyed, the power of the Elven rings will fade and thus the "Tides of Time will sweep [Lothlorien] away."
Some time ago, and it may have even been during the first B&N class, there was a discussion about this section of this chapter. I don't recall the exact subject of the thread; however the word "dwindle" came up. The entire passage in question is: "We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." At the time no one considered that dwindle has two meanings for Tolkien. The first meaning is that a group of people will diminish in number. This was the only accepted definition at the time of the thread. And it does make sense. The Elves that remain will become less in number. But, Tolkien also, used this word in a number of cases to describe individuals diminishing in stature. For instance, in the Prologue it states: "They [Hobbits] seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller." So, in the case of the above passage concerning the Elves, it could also mean that the Elves would become the short "Keebler" Elves we are more familiar with in the present. It was my purpose in tracking the word "dwindle" to make sure that everyone would give equal weight to the second definition. I will post my entire findings later. Fallohide, I hope I did not disappoint you with this simple purpose.
Galadriel faces a truly terrible choice. It isn't just simply choosing to take the Ring and become a Dark Queen, or not. It is the choice to allow whatever is to happen, happen or not. She risks Lothlorien in choosing not to take the Ring. The only way to continue to preserve her realm is to accept the Ring.
"The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls." Galadriel is speaking here of her internal struggle with the desire for the Ring. And then in rejecting the Ring finally after many years of thinking about possessing it, she passes the test and remains good. Is it a test she devised for herself or one that the Valar set up for her?
In the final section of the chapter, Frodo asks why he does not seem to have "power" when he puts on the Ring. Galadriel replies that he is "growing" to it and that with more determination of will, he will gain in power. I believe that Tolkien wants us to watch for this.
DA
My goodness, DA! There are so many "jools" here that I may have to find a dragon to set his ass upon it, lol.
Aragorn explains the fall of Gandalf. He states that "An evil of the Ancient World is seemed, such as I have never seen before." So though he had some sort of foreknowledge of Gandalf's peril should he enter Mordor he did not know what it would be.
I do not think Aragorn had foreknowledge of Gandalf's peril, just a wordly, ancestral intuition that the Balrog was an ancient evil.
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zaram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nala, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dum in the Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
I have two ideas about this one: 1) as a bearer of a ring of power, Galadriel could feel what was the heart and longing of the dwarf. 2) As a weilder of a ring of power, she had intuition in the hearts of dwarves, because they also possesed rings of power.
I want to know why it is that Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her gaze.
I think the answer lies in the purity of heart. Legolas, also being an Elf, shares the Elf heart and wisdom. Aragorn, being the Elf-stone, is also near to her in blood. They had nothing to hide, and could withstand her gaze the longest.
"Whether they've made the land, or the land has made them, it's hard to say."
I find this one of the most beautiful and touching lines in the entire trilogy. To really understand the elves, and their rebellion and subsequent move to Middle-earth, one needs merely to think deeply about this sentance.
"Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them."
I believe this to be a treatise in fate. To know your true fate and the job that lies ahead, is to trust that by accomplishing it, the future will become as it should. To turn away from this fate, is to allow these alternatives to take place because of your own folly in not trusting fate.
END OF PART 1
The entire passage in question is: "We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
I think there is a third "dwindle" Not just in numbers or stature as in size...but a dwindle in stature of importance. With the failing of the one ring, the others lose their power also. It seems to me the Elven rings did much to increase the power and stature of the Elves, and with their failure, the power of the Elves to command much of ME will fail also.
She risks Lothlorien in choosing not to take the Ring. The only way to continue to preserve her realm is to accept the Ring.
Big disagreement here. She realizes the Realm of Lothlorien cannot be saved either way. This is why she passes the test. To take the Ring would set up a Dark Queen, which she realizes would eventually made her realm evil, and it would fall. To see the ring destroyed would also end her power. Either way, Lorien is doomed.
"The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls." Galadriel is speaking here of her internal struggle with the desire for the Ring.
It may also be more than that. It could be a thought on the very creation of Melkor and evil.
Is it a test she devised for herself or one that the Valar set up for her?
I think both. It is a test she knows she must pass, and only then can the Valar accept her back as an errant ancestor of elves gone very wrong.
In the final section of the chapter, Frodo asks why he does not seem to have "power" when he puts on the Ring. Galadriel replies that he is "growing" to it and that with more determination of will, he will gain in power. I believe that Tolkien wants us to watch for this.
I also think that it is in Frodo's benefit, that his personality did not lead him to this conclusion already. He has no innate desire for power. This innocense I am sure is despised by the ring, much to it's chagrin.
Glor
I will make a feeble attempt to post on this thread. Just a reflection on the Chapter. I don't know much of the history that Iarwain Ben-adar speaks of in his reply, but can piece some of it together. You truly must have lived with ME a long time.
I will repeat my awe of Lothlorien. I identify with this refuge in my vocation. I work with 17-21 year olds that are behind in credits in finishing their high school education. Many come in down-trodden and lowly. We spend great deal of time filling the education gaps while helping to renew their confidence, self-esteem and self-reliance. So for me Lothlorien is a metaphor.
I wondered if anyone else identified with this.
As for my reflection of the chapter... it is excactly how I remembered it.
Galadriel shows great compassion and wisdom. She says she is not a counselor, and I would agree that in a tradional sense she would be correct. Those that gave counsel usually gave adivice. But modern counselors often avoid giving advice directly. They, like Galadriel counsel by ".. one way or the other"...(I'm also remembering what Frodo said to Gildor... don't go to the elves...for they will say both yes and no) instead modern counselors help you to see all the possible options including what you might gain/regret. It is up to choose the path to take. This approach to counsel builds confidence and self-reliance which is exactly what Frodo and Sam need to continue their perilous journey. In my opinion Galadriel is the best kind of counselor. Do you think Tolkien was trying to say this "between the lines?"
Luthien (Sarah)
Good insight Sarah. Tolkien may indeed be offering this between the lines. Tolkien's friend C.S. Lewis once said of his work LotR, that the series of dangers, then rests, help enrich the story. First the journey through the Old Forest and attack by Old Man Willow, then rest at Tom's house, then flight to the ford, and rest at Rivendell, then the flight through Moria, and rest at Lorien.
In each of these rest places they were given some sort of counsel, and gifts: the barrow-wight swords, the mithril coat and sting, and Galadriel's gifts.
Glor
Glor- Yes, I do see that. That also reflects real life too. We all need rest and restoring after long toil. I guess that also means we should help others along the way as our duty... Tolkien was among the very wise, don't you think(of course you do ;-) )?
Sarah