Post by Stormrider on Jan 20, 2009 20:41:01 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 10:36 AM
What was Tolkien's purpose to introduce the encounter between our three companions in Rohan and the mysterious old man? At this point in the story, we are uncertain of his identity. Aragorn deepens the uncertainty by stating, "But I marked also that this old man had a hat, not a hood." If this is supposed to be Saruman, why was it important for Tolkien to change his normal apparel?
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From: CathyL Sent: 10/22/2002 7:31 PM
I've always believed that the stranger was not Saruman but Gandolf, partly because of the hat. He was simply not ready to reveal himself yet. I've got a couple more reasons but they go ahead of the reading assignment, so I'll save them.
Cathy
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From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/22/2002 11:09 PM
Yes CathyL I agree. I always thought it was Gandalf and that Tolkien introduced him as a precursor to the eventual and triumphant meeting later....Perhaps this was a device to whet our appetite... it reminds me a a passage in Lewis' The Horse and his Boy" where Aslan appears disguised as a black cat and almost talking in riddles... Gandalf at that moment also suggests to me the archetypal "wise one within" just standing back letting us "figure it out" for ourselves...but which alerts us to change and our need to be vigilant........Gandalf lets them know someone is near, keeps them alert, prepares them for the unexpected....and it adds an aura of mystery and reorients the story towards the mystical for a while...it also reminds me of facing "inner fears", the dark, shadows, what are they, who are they, can it be trusted.......sometimes truth can be disguised in shadow and difficult to see and know for sure....and yet after some debate and uneasiness, the light of day eventually brings clarity but not before the companys' fears have clouded their sight; once again revelation made more outstanding and meaningful for the confusion and shadow that preceeded it.
Ilúviël
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From: megn1 Sent: 10/23/2002 12:28 AM
I want to avoid spoilers, but I must point out that we are later told that it was not Gandalf whom they saw.
I believe the explanation given later in the book is the correct one - that it was Saruman.
Certainly as a plot device it heightens our curiousity, and the sense of foreboding. It does set up the later encounter.
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/23/2002 10:36 AM
I'm inclined to follow Megn's thinking here. To avoid spoilers as well I will only mention to elements:
Merry and Pippins discussion with their new found buddy regarding Saurman.
(Note what he says)
And the qoute of Legolas regarding the horses after they had been frightened away how they sounded later in the distance.
Perhaps an eager Saurman came looking for his Hobbit prize, only to come upon the hunters. After freeing the horses and about to cause more mayhem, he felt a presence approach that frightened him before he could act further. A presence that the now loosed horses of the hunters meet and neighed as one meeting an old friend.
Hope that's not too much, am I on the right track Megn?
Namárië,
Iarwain
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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:29 PM
At first I thought it was Gandalf, but I am not so sure anymore now. If it is Gandalf, I think it could be to make it a bit more exciting for readers. With the first time reading it, I believed at this point that Gandalf was really lost (a thing wich had angered me. Not Gandalf; please!!). Also, Ilùviel and CathyL are right about his intentions then, though I ask myself why. It is a good cause to keep them alert, but he is their friend, and they would be very relieved and happy to have him back. And then he could also keep them alert himself. If it was Saruman, maybe he wanted to frighten them, but didn't risk a battle. Though Saruman probably is arrogant enough to at least think that he can handle all three of them. He would have a good chance with his powers of course.
Maybe I shouldn't have read the other messages, for they have made me a bit doubtful on this issue. Anyway, my first idea was that it is Gandalf indeed.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
What was Tolkien's purpose to introduce the encounter between our three companions in Rohan and the mysterious old man? At this point in the story, we are uncertain of his identity. Aragorn deepens the uncertainty by stating, "But I marked also that this old man had a hat, not a hood." If this is supposed to be Saruman, why was it important for Tolkien to change his normal apparel?
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/22/2002 7:31 PM
I've always believed that the stranger was not Saruman but Gandolf, partly because of the hat. He was simply not ready to reveal himself yet. I've got a couple more reasons but they go ahead of the reading assignment, so I'll save them.
Cathy
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/22/2002 11:09 PM
Yes CathyL I agree. I always thought it was Gandalf and that Tolkien introduced him as a precursor to the eventual and triumphant meeting later....Perhaps this was a device to whet our appetite... it reminds me a a passage in Lewis' The Horse and his Boy" where Aslan appears disguised as a black cat and almost talking in riddles... Gandalf at that moment also suggests to me the archetypal "wise one within" just standing back letting us "figure it out" for ourselves...but which alerts us to change and our need to be vigilant........Gandalf lets them know someone is near, keeps them alert, prepares them for the unexpected....and it adds an aura of mystery and reorients the story towards the mystical for a while...it also reminds me of facing "inner fears", the dark, shadows, what are they, who are they, can it be trusted.......sometimes truth can be disguised in shadow and difficult to see and know for sure....and yet after some debate and uneasiness, the light of day eventually brings clarity but not before the companys' fears have clouded their sight; once again revelation made more outstanding and meaningful for the confusion and shadow that preceeded it.
Ilúviël
* * *
From: megn1 Sent: 10/23/2002 12:28 AM
I want to avoid spoilers, but I must point out that we are later told that it was not Gandalf whom they saw.
I believe the explanation given later in the book is the correct one - that it was Saruman.
Certainly as a plot device it heightens our curiousity, and the sense of foreboding. It does set up the later encounter.
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/23/2002 10:36 AM
I'm inclined to follow Megn's thinking here. To avoid spoilers as well I will only mention to elements:
Merry and Pippins discussion with their new found buddy regarding Saurman.
(Note what he says)
And the qoute of Legolas regarding the horses after they had been frightened away how they sounded later in the distance.
Perhaps an eager Saurman came looking for his Hobbit prize, only to come upon the hunters. After freeing the horses and about to cause more mayhem, he felt a presence approach that frightened him before he could act further. A presence that the now loosed horses of the hunters meet and neighed as one meeting an old friend.
Hope that's not too much, am I on the right track Megn?
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:29 PM
At first I thought it was Gandalf, but I am not so sure anymore now. If it is Gandalf, I think it could be to make it a bit more exciting for readers. With the first time reading it, I believed at this point that Gandalf was really lost (a thing wich had angered me. Not Gandalf; please!!). Also, Ilùviel and CathyL are right about his intentions then, though I ask myself why. It is a good cause to keep them alert, but he is their friend, and they would be very relieved and happy to have him back. And then he could also keep them alert himself. If it was Saruman, maybe he wanted to frighten them, but didn't risk a battle. Though Saruman probably is arrogant enough to at least think that he can handle all three of them. He would have a good chance with his powers of course.
Maybe I shouldn't have read the other messages, for they have made me a bit doubtful on this issue. Anyway, my first idea was that it is Gandalf indeed.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend