Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:09:20 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/28/2002 8:52 AM
For the second time in the story thus far, we get an indication that Hobbits could be mistaken for Orcs. Earlier, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli were concerned that the Rohirrim may have killed Merry and Pippin by taking them for Orcs. Here, Treebeard isn't too sure that our two wandering Hobbits aren't Orcs either. Later on, in ROTK, Sam and Frodo use this to their advantage ...
I found this very interesting simply because to me, it would be difficult to make that assumption based upon how I envision both races. Are there characteristics shared by both races that lead to this case of mistaken identity?
Comments?
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 10/28/2002 7:02 PM
Perhaps because Hobbits are not well known in ME, and the first asumption by all races is one of paranoia. They might have assumed they were small or orc children, or some device of the enemy.
Glor
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/28/2002 8:06 PM
I think Glor is on the right track there, if we go back to The Hobbit although Smaug could tell the smell/taste of a Dwarf ridden pony upon eating it, he had know idea of Bilbos odor as to what he was. A forgotten race would be assumed to be part of what ever company they keep, like as not?
And now that I consider it if the party of 13 rode ponies everywhere, what's Gimli's beef with horses? Is it just his personal fear or shared Dwarf fear and ponies don't count.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 10/29/2002 12:52 PM
I just can't imagine anyone confusing a Hobbit with an Orc! Hobbits are so normal looking except for their hairy feet and small stature. Orcs having been mal-created from Elves by Melkor, gives me the feeling that they are more on the tall and even slender side. Plus they are UGLY! Would you be confused? I know later in the story, it is important that Hobbits can pass as Orcs.....but come on! I always couldn't swallow that one!
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/29/2002 1:29 PM
I go with Glorfindle about this one: most people fear what they don't know. Though I can't understand how you could mistake a Hobbit for an Orc (should I be offended by this? I don't really like the possibility that people could take ME for an Orc! Me, who am so light hearted!). I mean, I think of Orcs as ugly and clumsy and not too smart, while Hobbits are, well, I wouldn't say childish, but in my imagination they have some childlike qualities (like their enthusiasm for example, and their capability to vanish, because my little brother knows a lot about that too, lol).
Oh, and Iarwain: I think that ponies don't count. Most ponies are not as big as horses; when I was little, I even called ponies "Dwarf horses". Isn't this cute, or what? Anyway, maybe there is some truth in a child's observation. I can picture a Dwarf riding a ponie, but a Dwarf on a horse does look somewhat ridiculous to me.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 3:56 PM
"I just can't imagine anyone confusing a Hobbit with an Orc!"
StormRider, Tolkien kind of explains it by the height of Treebeard
(14 feet?), and the confusion of battle with Orcs and Men rushing
around all over the place, dust blown in the air and such. But I
have to admit, it does seem a little weak.
Diana
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/18/2002 10:42 PM
I think we are making too much of this mistake of Treebeard. I think he was pointing out the danger the Hobbits are in by coming into the forest. I also get a bit of hint that Treebeard knows good and well that the Hobbits have a mission...although he may not know all the details... perhaps he's heard something of haflings or little ones... He's not wanting them to give up their names so easily.
Here are my other thoughts:
Hobbits are small and likely about the same size of the mountain and Moria orcs. He was not sure what to make of this small beings and doesn't know what he is seeing when sees them coming towards him. I can see him going through his list thinking and then reflecting on the fact that orcs have of late have had the audacity to cut through the forest... Something that I am sure hasn't occurred until recently. But I don't think he had to think too long... luckly he's not a hasty being. If he was he wouldn't have figured out his mistake until it was too late.
Luthien (Sarah)
For the second time in the story thus far, we get an indication that Hobbits could be mistaken for Orcs. Earlier, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli were concerned that the Rohirrim may have killed Merry and Pippin by taking them for Orcs. Here, Treebeard isn't too sure that our two wandering Hobbits aren't Orcs either. Later on, in ROTK, Sam and Frodo use this to their advantage ...
I found this very interesting simply because to me, it would be difficult to make that assumption based upon how I envision both races. Are there characteristics shared by both races that lead to this case of mistaken identity?
Comments?
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 10/28/2002 7:02 PM
Perhaps because Hobbits are not well known in ME, and the first asumption by all races is one of paranoia. They might have assumed they were small or orc children, or some device of the enemy.
Glor
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/28/2002 8:06 PM
I think Glor is on the right track there, if we go back to The Hobbit although Smaug could tell the smell/taste of a Dwarf ridden pony upon eating it, he had know idea of Bilbos odor as to what he was. A forgotten race would be assumed to be part of what ever company they keep, like as not?
And now that I consider it if the party of 13 rode ponies everywhere, what's Gimli's beef with horses? Is it just his personal fear or shared Dwarf fear and ponies don't count.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 10/29/2002 12:52 PM
I just can't imagine anyone confusing a Hobbit with an Orc! Hobbits are so normal looking except for their hairy feet and small stature. Orcs having been mal-created from Elves by Melkor, gives me the feeling that they are more on the tall and even slender side. Plus they are UGLY! Would you be confused? I know later in the story, it is important that Hobbits can pass as Orcs.....but come on! I always couldn't swallow that one!
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/29/2002 1:29 PM
I go with Glorfindle about this one: most people fear what they don't know. Though I can't understand how you could mistake a Hobbit for an Orc (should I be offended by this? I don't really like the possibility that people could take ME for an Orc! Me, who am so light hearted!). I mean, I think of Orcs as ugly and clumsy and not too smart, while Hobbits are, well, I wouldn't say childish, but in my imagination they have some childlike qualities (like their enthusiasm for example, and their capability to vanish, because my little brother knows a lot about that too, lol).
Oh, and Iarwain: I think that ponies don't count. Most ponies are not as big as horses; when I was little, I even called ponies "Dwarf horses". Isn't this cute, or what? Anyway, maybe there is some truth in a child's observation. I can picture a Dwarf riding a ponie, but a Dwarf on a horse does look somewhat ridiculous to me.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 3:56 PM
"I just can't imagine anyone confusing a Hobbit with an Orc!"
StormRider, Tolkien kind of explains it by the height of Treebeard
(14 feet?), and the confusion of battle with Orcs and Men rushing
around all over the place, dust blown in the air and such. But I
have to admit, it does seem a little weak.
Diana
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/18/2002 10:42 PM
I think we are making too much of this mistake of Treebeard. I think he was pointing out the danger the Hobbits are in by coming into the forest. I also get a bit of hint that Treebeard knows good and well that the Hobbits have a mission...although he may not know all the details... perhaps he's heard something of haflings or little ones... He's not wanting them to give up their names so easily.
Here are my other thoughts:
Hobbits are small and likely about the same size of the mountain and Moria orcs. He was not sure what to make of this small beings and doesn't know what he is seeing when sees them coming towards him. I can see him going through his list thinking and then reflecting on the fact that orcs have of late have had the audacity to cut through the forest... Something that I am sure hasn't occurred until recently. But I don't think he had to think too long... luckly he's not a hasty being. If he was he wouldn't have figured out his mistake until it was too late.
Luthien (Sarah)