Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:14:32 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/28/2002 10:42 PM
Ok ... first of all, any of you guys remember when you first came across the chapter entitled "The White Rider"? Who cried? Come on ... don't lie! I think I did .
Well ... we finally catch back up to Gandalf and oh! how he has changed! Gandalf now sports the white robes indicating a "promotion" and Tolkien's arrangement of the literature here really suggests a new Power in the realm. Also of note, before I forget, pay particular attention to Gimli's role of "comic relief" recently ... masterful work!
As stated, Gandalf is now no longer the grey wizard who is more renown for his fireworks than much else. He has drastically changed into something else altogether. What are some of the prominent and "not-so-obvious" alterations to his character now? Are there any symbolisms here that we should be picking up on?
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:23 AM
How about this hypothesis? It's not that Gandalf has changed into something else, but rather that he's more of himself.
Gandalf's whiteness is partly due to an inner radiance that now manifests itself -- that's so strong, shines through his body. Not only did he prove his greatness by killing one of the great evils of Middle-earth, but he passed through something powerful....what was the phrase he used, "out of time"? He seems a bit out of it when he meets Treebeard, Merry and Pip. The Eagle found Gandalf naked, which may suggest a rebirth. Even Gandalf can't explain where he'd been.
Diana
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:26 AM
Sorry about the repeated posts. I kept getting a weird message and it looked like the posts hadn't gone through. ~ Di
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 10/29/2002 7:10 AM
It's not that Gandalf has changed into something else, but rather that he's more of himself.
That's a neat way of putting it.
It seems that Gandalf has been given back just a little more of the inate power and wisdom he had as Olorin, Maia of Amman.
His character hasn't changed. He's just as reluctant to give straight answers or to reveal his own thoughts and plans as he ever was.
His actions are different, though. Gone is his customary caution. He now acts descisively, openly and with great authority. He doesn't go to Theoden with advice and counsel; he more or less forces him into immediate and direct action. He takes direct action himself in bringing the Ents to Helm's Deep and in gathering the scattered army of Rohan. At Isengard, he doesn't debate with Saruman; he laughs at him, gives him a blunt ultimatum and takes his staff and his power.
Gandalf hasn't changed. He's just allowed to show a little more of his real self.
Selmo.
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/30/2002 6:26 AM
Grey - Symbolizes "grave clothes"
Naked - Birth
White - "White as snow" New...
Grey covering the white... not ready to be revealed
Powerful, but not enough to overcome Sauron alone.
Was the voice that helped Frodo at the top of Amon Hen?
Busy week for me... sorry for the brevity (I did read I disagreeignment :-) )
Luithien
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 10/30/2002 6:48 PM
Saruman was the head of the order, and he was white. He then became Saruman of many colors, I think indicating he has foresaken the order. Gandalf is now white, indicating he is now head of the Istari?
Glor
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/31/2002 10:01 AM
LOL!!! I just spent three quarters of an hour replying to this thread and when I tried to post it the whole thing vanished!!! Eeeeegads!! Good Grief!
ok....I can't write it again so I will briefly say ( maybe it was a godsend you didn't get the long version!!lol!!) ...............
Amaranth, Selmo, Luthien and Glorfindle I agree!!!!!! which is basically what I said in 300 or more words!! lol!! you are in luck! You have been spared!
and I did cry Algamesh... yes indeed...but more when he died I think....and also when I lost the post...(!)
Ilúviël (well maybe I will try again tomorrow!............altho maybe I should take the hint!!)
* * *
From: Soleil Sent: 10/31/2002 11:34 AM
Ilúviël Almarië....I am so sorry you lost your post. I enjoy reading them.
Amaranth...when I read your post, my reaction was, yes!, my thoughts exactly. I felt Gandalf metamorphosed into the next level of his power and enlightenment.
Glor...leader of the Istari...hadn't thought of that, but of course! It makes perfect, logical sense.
Alg...everything brings tears for me, and Gandalf's death was no exception. I had a lost, empty-sails feeling. Thank goodness for next installments!
Soleil
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/1/2002 12:26 PM
Glorfindle that is exactly what I had thought. In some way, Galadriel must have felt this already because if she would have had her way, Gandalf would have been the head of the white counsel from the beginning. Unfortunately, it became Saruman. Maybe even then he already longed to have more and more power.
I have my doubt about the fact that Gandalf had died and reborn again, in a literal way that is. He surely has experienced much after finally defeating the Balrog, and of course this ordeal must have changed him in a way. It would also seem normal to me that he still was somewhat stupefied after that heavy fight (that could explain why he doesn't remember his name, though it is alos possible that he was playing with his friends, because he wanted them to recognize him rather than just tell them it was him). Maybe after his victory he was more aware of his powers than before. It is also normal, I think, that now he takes more direct action, because time is running out. They have to act fast, and therefor, for example, he didn't have the time to use the soft approach on Théoden. Besides, the soft approach would maybe not have worked on Théoden, he needed to be awoken. My theory about that was that Wormtongue sort of hypnotised him. Anyway, I think that Gandalf now just acts more quickly and more open because this is necessary.
Namárië,
Lara
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/4/2002 3:14 AM
I have been thinkin. Maybe the Balrog was some kind of trial, to see if Gandalf would be able to cope with all the responsibilities, worries and duties that come with being the head of the Istari. It could even be that he had to be reborn, like Amaranth said, to become the new head of the order. Defeating the Balrog was the proof that he will be capable, and so he was allowed to "level up". If he is not reborn again, then he is at least been in some realm to gain some new skills or abilities necessary.
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
Ok ... first of all, any of you guys remember when you first came across the chapter entitled "The White Rider"? Who cried? Come on ... don't lie! I think I did .
Well ... we finally catch back up to Gandalf and oh! how he has changed! Gandalf now sports the white robes indicating a "promotion" and Tolkien's arrangement of the literature here really suggests a new Power in the realm. Also of note, before I forget, pay particular attention to Gimli's role of "comic relief" recently ... masterful work!
As stated, Gandalf is now no longer the grey wizard who is more renown for his fireworks than much else. He has drastically changed into something else altogether. What are some of the prominent and "not-so-obvious" alterations to his character now? Are there any symbolisms here that we should be picking up on?
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:23 AM
How about this hypothesis? It's not that Gandalf has changed into something else, but rather that he's more of himself.
Gandalf's whiteness is partly due to an inner radiance that now manifests itself -- that's so strong, shines through his body. Not only did he prove his greatness by killing one of the great evils of Middle-earth, but he passed through something powerful....what was the phrase he used, "out of time"? He seems a bit out of it when he meets Treebeard, Merry and Pip. The Eagle found Gandalf naked, which may suggest a rebirth. Even Gandalf can't explain where he'd been.
Diana
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:26 AM
Sorry about the repeated posts. I kept getting a weird message and it looked like the posts hadn't gone through. ~ Di
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 10/29/2002 7:10 AM
It's not that Gandalf has changed into something else, but rather that he's more of himself.
That's a neat way of putting it.
It seems that Gandalf has been given back just a little more of the inate power and wisdom he had as Olorin, Maia of Amman.
His character hasn't changed. He's just as reluctant to give straight answers or to reveal his own thoughts and plans as he ever was.
His actions are different, though. Gone is his customary caution. He now acts descisively, openly and with great authority. He doesn't go to Theoden with advice and counsel; he more or less forces him into immediate and direct action. He takes direct action himself in bringing the Ents to Helm's Deep and in gathering the scattered army of Rohan. At Isengard, he doesn't debate with Saruman; he laughs at him, gives him a blunt ultimatum and takes his staff and his power.
Gandalf hasn't changed. He's just allowed to show a little more of his real self.
Selmo.
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/30/2002 6:26 AM
Grey - Symbolizes "grave clothes"
Naked - Birth
White - "White as snow" New...
Grey covering the white... not ready to be revealed
Powerful, but not enough to overcome Sauron alone.
Was the voice that helped Frodo at the top of Amon Hen?
Busy week for me... sorry for the brevity (I did read I disagreeignment :-) )
Luithien
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 10/30/2002 6:48 PM
Saruman was the head of the order, and he was white. He then became Saruman of many colors, I think indicating he has foresaken the order. Gandalf is now white, indicating he is now head of the Istari?
Glor
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/31/2002 10:01 AM
LOL!!! I just spent three quarters of an hour replying to this thread and when I tried to post it the whole thing vanished!!! Eeeeegads!! Good Grief!
ok....I can't write it again so I will briefly say ( maybe it was a godsend you didn't get the long version!!lol!!) ...............
Amaranth, Selmo, Luthien and Glorfindle I agree!!!!!! which is basically what I said in 300 or more words!! lol!! you are in luck! You have been spared!
and I did cry Algamesh... yes indeed...but more when he died I think....and also when I lost the post...(!)
Ilúviël (well maybe I will try again tomorrow!............altho maybe I should take the hint!!)
* * *
From: Soleil Sent: 10/31/2002 11:34 AM
Ilúviël Almarië....I am so sorry you lost your post. I enjoy reading them.
Amaranth...when I read your post, my reaction was, yes!, my thoughts exactly. I felt Gandalf metamorphosed into the next level of his power and enlightenment.
Glor...leader of the Istari...hadn't thought of that, but of course! It makes perfect, logical sense.
Alg...everything brings tears for me, and Gandalf's death was no exception. I had a lost, empty-sails feeling. Thank goodness for next installments!
Soleil
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/1/2002 12:26 PM
Glorfindle that is exactly what I had thought. In some way, Galadriel must have felt this already because if she would have had her way, Gandalf would have been the head of the white counsel from the beginning. Unfortunately, it became Saruman. Maybe even then he already longed to have more and more power.
I have my doubt about the fact that Gandalf had died and reborn again, in a literal way that is. He surely has experienced much after finally defeating the Balrog, and of course this ordeal must have changed him in a way. It would also seem normal to me that he still was somewhat stupefied after that heavy fight (that could explain why he doesn't remember his name, though it is alos possible that he was playing with his friends, because he wanted them to recognize him rather than just tell them it was him). Maybe after his victory he was more aware of his powers than before. It is also normal, I think, that now he takes more direct action, because time is running out. They have to act fast, and therefor, for example, he didn't have the time to use the soft approach on Théoden. Besides, the soft approach would maybe not have worked on Théoden, he needed to be awoken. My theory about that was that Wormtongue sort of hypnotised him. Anyway, I think that Gandalf now just acts more quickly and more open because this is necessary.
Namárië,
Lara
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/4/2002 3:14 AM
I have been thinkin. Maybe the Balrog was some kind of trial, to see if Gandalf would be able to cope with all the responsibilities, worries and duties that come with being the head of the Istari. It could even be that he had to be reborn, like Amaranth said, to become the new head of the order. Defeating the Balrog was the proof that he will be capable, and so he was allowed to "level up". If he is not reborn again, then he is at least been in some realm to gain some new skills or abilities necessary.
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend