Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:19:32 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2002 8:07 PM
We learn during the Battle of Helm's Deep that Saruman has deployed "wild men" and herd-folk from the region of Dunland in his conquest against the Rohirrim. Who are they? What political issues motivate them to fight for the wizard, Saruman? It is alluded to in the text that they have a hatred for the Rohirrim, what are the reasons for this?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 8:34 AM
They were the first inhabitants of Rohan. They lived there before the people of Gondor gave that land to Eorl the Young and his folk and made an alliance with them. After 500 years, they are still mad because of it. Secondly, Saruman had deceived the people from Dunland, by telling them that the Rohirrim were vicious and cruel, and that they burnt their captives alive. We know that Saruman had the power to bent other people's will to his own. Probably he made use of this skill to fuel the Dunlander's anger and hatred towards the Rohirrim.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/7/2002 8:36 PM
Since I have the history thread, this topic falls under that category so I will plop my findings here on this thread.
There is more to the story of these Wild Men than just the incident at Helm’s Deep. The animosity goes back to earlier years before the Great Plague of 1636-1637 in the Third Age. I found all of this in Unfinished Tales and the Appendixes of ROTR.
There were a few tribes of "Wild Men" who were fishers and fowlers and they lived in the marshlands of the mouths of the Greyflood and the Isen. They were kin in speech and race to the Drúedain of the woods of Anórien. They lived on the western side of the Misty Mountains and the Rohirrim later called them Dunlendings. They were bad-tempered, hardy, and bold. They were in awe of the Kings who were very powerful so they kept to themselves and did not interfere with the Kings nor did they have dealings with other Men.
When the days of the Kings ended during 1975-2050 in the Third Age the Dunlendings were no longer the subjects of Gondor. During the Watchful Peace 2063-2460 they dwindled and the tougher peoples went eastward. The ones who stayed became rustic and did not bother with the events going on in Minas Tirith. The Dunlendings were drifters and interbred with other races to give them mixed blood.
After the victory of Eorl on the Field of Celebrant in 2510, his strong and mighty horse lords took over the lands and drove out and destroyed the eastern invaders. Cirion the Steward gave Eorl and his people the land that became known as the Riddermark.
During this time, the eastern borders were continually under attack but the Dunlendings were driven out and away from the Fords of Isen. This is how the Rohirrim earned the hatred of the Dunlendings.
In 2754, there was a man named Freca with a lot of Dunlendish blood in him who claimed to be a descendent of King Fréawine of the Mark. He became rich and powerful and Helm did not trust him so he invited him to his councils.
At one council, Freca asked that Helm’s daughter marry his son, Wulf, and was turned down. Freca became angry. After the council, Helm hit Freca so hard that Freca died from the blow. Helm called out that Freca’s son and kin were the king’s enemies.
In 2758 Rohan was constantly under attack from the Corsairs and from the East. Wulf of the Dunlendings saw an opportunity and attacked with a great force out of Isengard. Rohan was defeated and Helm was pushed back and took shelter in the Hornburg and was besieged in the ravine (which became known as Helm’s Deep). Wulf took over Meduseld and called himself kning. Helm’s son, Haleth, was killed defending its doors.
The Long Winter began (Nov. to March of 2758-2759) and Rohan and its enemies all suffered great losses from the cold . At Helm’s Deep there was hunger. Háma his younger son went out to fight but were lost in the snow. Helm became murderous and very lean because of grief and hunger. He went out alone dressed in white and attacked his enemies campsites killing many with his bare hands. The Dunlendings said that Helm ate men and became afraid when he blew his horn. One night he did not return and was found frozen. Tales about Helm and his horn sounding in the Deep lasted many years.
In the Spring, Helm’s sister’s, son Fréaláf, came down out of Dunharrow with a small group of deperate men and surprised Wulf. They killed him a recovered Edoras. By the end of 2759 the Dunlendings were chased away even from Isengard and Fréaláf became king.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Lord_Algamesh Sent: 11/8/2002 1:10 AM
Stormrider,
A nice bit of research! I'm sure that you have just broadened the scope and understanding of these issues for all of us! Great Job and Thanks!
Algy
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 11/8/2002 4:39 AM
We have already learned how the Wild man got driven away from Rohan's terrirory, thanks to Stormrider (I also learned a lot). So I'll just go to my theory why they fight with Saruman.
They still were angry about what happened in Rohan. But this war had already ended for a while (for humans, that is), if I see Stormrider's last date (2759). I believe that their hatred could not be that strong anymore, after such a large period. It would be a vague memory, somewhere in history. Not after so many human lives. But it still was strong. Something must had fed it, keeping the memory alive. And I believe this was Saruman's doing. He gathered all the power he could get, and he found out these wild tribes could be very handy to him. So he remembered them what the Rohirrim did. He placed them this idea that Rohan was still their homeland, and that they had the right to take it back. Finally he told them the "only" way to defeat their stronger enemy. If they would fight with him and his orcs.
Namárië
Orgulas
We learn during the Battle of Helm's Deep that Saruman has deployed "wild men" and herd-folk from the region of Dunland in his conquest against the Rohirrim. Who are they? What political issues motivate them to fight for the wizard, Saruman? It is alluded to in the text that they have a hatred for the Rohirrim, what are the reasons for this?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 8:34 AM
They were the first inhabitants of Rohan. They lived there before the people of Gondor gave that land to Eorl the Young and his folk and made an alliance with them. After 500 years, they are still mad because of it. Secondly, Saruman had deceived the people from Dunland, by telling them that the Rohirrim were vicious and cruel, and that they burnt their captives alive. We know that Saruman had the power to bent other people's will to his own. Probably he made use of this skill to fuel the Dunlander's anger and hatred towards the Rohirrim.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/7/2002 8:36 PM
Since I have the history thread, this topic falls under that category so I will plop my findings here on this thread.
There is more to the story of these Wild Men than just the incident at Helm’s Deep. The animosity goes back to earlier years before the Great Plague of 1636-1637 in the Third Age. I found all of this in Unfinished Tales and the Appendixes of ROTR.
There were a few tribes of "Wild Men" who were fishers and fowlers and they lived in the marshlands of the mouths of the Greyflood and the Isen. They were kin in speech and race to the Drúedain of the woods of Anórien. They lived on the western side of the Misty Mountains and the Rohirrim later called them Dunlendings. They were bad-tempered, hardy, and bold. They were in awe of the Kings who were very powerful so they kept to themselves and did not interfere with the Kings nor did they have dealings with other Men.
When the days of the Kings ended during 1975-2050 in the Third Age the Dunlendings were no longer the subjects of Gondor. During the Watchful Peace 2063-2460 they dwindled and the tougher peoples went eastward. The ones who stayed became rustic and did not bother with the events going on in Minas Tirith. The Dunlendings were drifters and interbred with other races to give them mixed blood.
After the victory of Eorl on the Field of Celebrant in 2510, his strong and mighty horse lords took over the lands and drove out and destroyed the eastern invaders. Cirion the Steward gave Eorl and his people the land that became known as the Riddermark.
During this time, the eastern borders were continually under attack but the Dunlendings were driven out and away from the Fords of Isen. This is how the Rohirrim earned the hatred of the Dunlendings.
In 2754, there was a man named Freca with a lot of Dunlendish blood in him who claimed to be a descendent of King Fréawine of the Mark. He became rich and powerful and Helm did not trust him so he invited him to his councils.
At one council, Freca asked that Helm’s daughter marry his son, Wulf, and was turned down. Freca became angry. After the council, Helm hit Freca so hard that Freca died from the blow. Helm called out that Freca’s son and kin were the king’s enemies.
In 2758 Rohan was constantly under attack from the Corsairs and from the East. Wulf of the Dunlendings saw an opportunity and attacked with a great force out of Isengard. Rohan was defeated and Helm was pushed back and took shelter in the Hornburg and was besieged in the ravine (which became known as Helm’s Deep). Wulf took over Meduseld and called himself kning. Helm’s son, Haleth, was killed defending its doors.
The Long Winter began (Nov. to March of 2758-2759) and Rohan and its enemies all suffered great losses from the cold . At Helm’s Deep there was hunger. Háma his younger son went out to fight but were lost in the snow. Helm became murderous and very lean because of grief and hunger. He went out alone dressed in white and attacked his enemies campsites killing many with his bare hands. The Dunlendings said that Helm ate men and became afraid when he blew his horn. One night he did not return and was found frozen. Tales about Helm and his horn sounding in the Deep lasted many years.
In the Spring, Helm’s sister’s, son Fréaláf, came down out of Dunharrow with a small group of deperate men and surprised Wulf. They killed him a recovered Edoras. By the end of 2759 the Dunlendings were chased away even from Isengard and Fréaláf became king.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Lord_Algamesh Sent: 11/8/2002 1:10 AM
Stormrider,
A nice bit of research! I'm sure that you have just broadened the scope and understanding of these issues for all of us! Great Job and Thanks!
Algy
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 11/8/2002 4:39 AM
We have already learned how the Wild man got driven away from Rohan's terrirory, thanks to Stormrider (I also learned a lot). So I'll just go to my theory why they fight with Saruman.
They still were angry about what happened in Rohan. But this war had already ended for a while (for humans, that is), if I see Stormrider's last date (2759). I believe that their hatred could not be that strong anymore, after such a large period. It would be a vague memory, somewhere in history. Not after so many human lives. But it still was strong. Something must had fed it, keeping the memory alive. And I believe this was Saruman's doing. He gathered all the power he could get, and he found out these wild tribes could be very handy to him. So he remembered them what the Rohirrim did. He placed them this idea that Rohan was still their homeland, and that they had the right to take it back. Finally he told them the "only" way to defeat their stronger enemy. If they would fight with him and his orcs.
Namárië
Orgulas