Post by MajahTR on Jan 21, 2009 9:17:40 GMT -6
Very nice of Celeborn to give everyone an opportunity to leave the Fellowship: stay here until it is decided and then go home in disgrace if Good wins or die here with the rest of us if Evil prevails. Of course, he didn't say it in those words…
We are clued in on the reasons for Aragorn's indecision about which course to take. He is relieved to have the boats that Celeborn offered, so that decision could be delayed for as long as possible. But, while he's in thought…
Boromir tips his cards to Frodo and us. Something that I'm keeping an eye on is how Boromir's language patterns will change as the madness grows on him. He noticed that he spoke his thoughts aloud, but covered for himself by adding a disclaimer. "..and folly to throw away…It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean…" Frodo is aware of the discrepancy.
Got a question for everyone…Is it possible for the Ringbearer to be aware of all those that have a desire to possess the Ring? Could Sauron have included that in making the Ring so that he himself would be aware of plots to take the Ring?
Forgive this next section: The Fellowship is given lembas. I know that it has been compared to the Catholic Host in its ability to "sustain" a person/soul. But, I am in a strange mood and really want to be irreverent. Lembas are like Twinkies: they are creamy on the inside with a golden color on the outside; both stay fresh a long time if left in the wrapper; both will sustain a traveler for hours. How about that for a comparison…(I'm not original. You can find this all over the Internet.)
We are made aware of the Faerie association again. "…it became like home to them, though they could not count the days and nights that they had passed there."
I never caught the connection before to Gandalf's continuing battle with the Balrog when Haldir speaks. "The Dimrill Dale is full of vapor and clouds of smoke, and the mountains are troubled. There are noises in the deeps of the earth."
Galadriel gives Aragorn the green elf stone that we posted about during the Council of Elrond thread. His countenance changes to a kingly one. The same thing happened at Cerin Amroth as he was thinking of Arwen.
My favorite gift giving passages are those with Gimli. A number of things are at work here. One, we see a mending of the relations between Elves and Dwarves. The courtly love that Gimli bears Galadriel makes me sigh. And then also, knowing the tale in Unfinished Tales of Galadriel's refusal to give Feanor a strand of her hair makes it even more poignant that she gives Gimli three strands.
They travel down the Anduin…
DA
DaleAnn; "And if I ever return to the smithies of my home, it shall be set in impershable crystal to be an heirloomof my house, and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days."
You said it made you sigh, more like take your breath away. It's been 30 years since I first read it, and it is still one of the most touching passages in LOTR to me.
The reverence Gimli holds for the Lady of the Galadhrim stays with him and defines his charactor through the rest of the tale. He is no longer the comical blundering oaf you first envision from his entrance at the Council of Elrond. His eloquent statement also sets in motion the relationship you mentioned between him and Legolas, that matures to a binding comradeship until the end of their days. What magic Tolkien works with such a short phrase!
Camellia
I feel like Gimli is the "star" in farewell to Lorien. I think this chapter is a turning point for Gimli. I honestly never really like him very much until I get to this chapter. He just seems like a "a know it all" and he doesn't contribute much to the fellowship... well, his axe when necessary...
But here in Farewell to Lorien we see how effect the Galadhrim have had. We've learned that Gimli began his close friendship to Legolas as the spent lots of time together. And as Dale Ann pointed out at chat tonight, Legolas did defend him to Haldir went they arrived at Lothlorien.
Gimli is so cute when he asks for a strand of Galadriel's hair (and she gave him 3... he must have been adorable)."...Celeborn gazed at the Dwarf in wonder" I wonder if wasn't just a little put off. If I had to choose the most practical gift, it would be Gimli's:
"...that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall no dominion."
One thing I like about Dwarves is their emotional side... anger, greed, bravery...you know exactly where they stand. (Aside: My son likes the Dwarves best in ME. He does great impressions of Gimli and The Hobbit dwarves - it cracks me up). At the end of the chapter..
"Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did know where the chief peril lay! ...Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
So melodramatic! So sweet.
LovedBeren
Just had to react to what's been said...
DaleAnn - So, why is it ok for Galadriel to test the motives of the Fellowship and not ok for Celeborn to test their resolve? Actually, it was nice of him to give everyone an opportunity to stay. When the mission is dire, a wise commander always gives the team members a last chance to step back out of the line. Call it a form of military compassion. Tolkien had to be aware of this practice. Though, only Tolkien knows if Aragorn discussed this offer with Celeborn before the meeting. Does not look like it to me. Emotional issues aside. This opportunity to back off helps the weaker members survive and gives the stronger members a better chance of survival. Cowards are not the only ones who are a danger or burden to a mission and their comrades. So are the walking wounded and the one's who need "to be protected". If they truely care about the others, this is is their chance to choose to stay behind too. On the emotional side, whether anyone stays or everyone goes, the team leaves recommitted. I don't think Celeborn would have made this offer himself if Aragorn had indeed stopped being just a guide and taken up command. The debate that followed indicates his indecision is effecting the others. Aragorn never seems to react to what Boromir is doing to the other's confidence in his leadership. After Celeborn speaks, Boromir has to say something. He always does. Celeborn handles this tendency pretty well until Boromir goes on about not needing advice. Then, C gets haughty and for his own satisfaction throws in a little foresight about just how Aragorn will make himself known as the true King to whom Boromir will have to bend a knee. Fortunately (unfortunately?), this remark is more guarded then what he said to Gimli. Just like before, Galadriel steps up and smoothes C's feathers. Why do I find this couple so much fun!
Luthien and CamilliaDanderfluff (luv that name) - You are so right about Gimli. His spirit has indeed grown. He sees past Galadriel's placating words as no dwarf before him. Even though, G did indeed "charm" him as was feared by Boromir for himself. IMHO, the elves look on in wonder not because he has the audacity to ask for a strand of hair, but because that is what an elf would do! (as elves have done) Never a dwarf! Everyone is taken by surprise, even Galadriel, that Gimli has transcended into their plane of thought. She can easily see that now "gold shall have no dominion" over him. Only after Lothlorien, not before despite their journeying together, could Legolas and Gimli become a true friends. They at last share more than bread or even a cause. They share a higher thought. Elves can be so condescending sometimes. Oh I should not have said that, darn it....
Redha
No indeed you should not... LOL Ok, raising to your bait....
But you're right, in a way, we - I mean they - can be condescending sometimes. I feel it is 'logical', in a sense, especially since I read the book on symbolism in LotR. If you imagine the Companions on a human body, Gimli is very 'low', meaning close to the earth, whereas Legolas is near the top. Oh. If I am not making sense, tell me, and I'll elaborate on this later - I'm kinda tired and should turn in...
Pearl
We are clued in on the reasons for Aragorn's indecision about which course to take. He is relieved to have the boats that Celeborn offered, so that decision could be delayed for as long as possible. But, while he's in thought…
Boromir tips his cards to Frodo and us. Something that I'm keeping an eye on is how Boromir's language patterns will change as the madness grows on him. He noticed that he spoke his thoughts aloud, but covered for himself by adding a disclaimer. "..and folly to throw away…It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean…" Frodo is aware of the discrepancy.
Got a question for everyone…Is it possible for the Ringbearer to be aware of all those that have a desire to possess the Ring? Could Sauron have included that in making the Ring so that he himself would be aware of plots to take the Ring?
Forgive this next section: The Fellowship is given lembas. I know that it has been compared to the Catholic Host in its ability to "sustain" a person/soul. But, I am in a strange mood and really want to be irreverent. Lembas are like Twinkies: they are creamy on the inside with a golden color on the outside; both stay fresh a long time if left in the wrapper; both will sustain a traveler for hours. How about that for a comparison…(I'm not original. You can find this all over the Internet.)
We are made aware of the Faerie association again. "…it became like home to them, though they could not count the days and nights that they had passed there."
I never caught the connection before to Gandalf's continuing battle with the Balrog when Haldir speaks. "The Dimrill Dale is full of vapor and clouds of smoke, and the mountains are troubled. There are noises in the deeps of the earth."
Galadriel gives Aragorn the green elf stone that we posted about during the Council of Elrond thread. His countenance changes to a kingly one. The same thing happened at Cerin Amroth as he was thinking of Arwen.
My favorite gift giving passages are those with Gimli. A number of things are at work here. One, we see a mending of the relations between Elves and Dwarves. The courtly love that Gimli bears Galadriel makes me sigh. And then also, knowing the tale in Unfinished Tales of Galadriel's refusal to give Feanor a strand of her hair makes it even more poignant that she gives Gimli three strands.
They travel down the Anduin…
DA
DaleAnn; "And if I ever return to the smithies of my home, it shall be set in impershable crystal to be an heirloomof my house, and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days."
You said it made you sigh, more like take your breath away. It's been 30 years since I first read it, and it is still one of the most touching passages in LOTR to me.
The reverence Gimli holds for the Lady of the Galadhrim stays with him and defines his charactor through the rest of the tale. He is no longer the comical blundering oaf you first envision from his entrance at the Council of Elrond. His eloquent statement also sets in motion the relationship you mentioned between him and Legolas, that matures to a binding comradeship until the end of their days. What magic Tolkien works with such a short phrase!
Camellia
I feel like Gimli is the "star" in farewell to Lorien. I think this chapter is a turning point for Gimli. I honestly never really like him very much until I get to this chapter. He just seems like a "a know it all" and he doesn't contribute much to the fellowship... well, his axe when necessary...
But here in Farewell to Lorien we see how effect the Galadhrim have had. We've learned that Gimli began his close friendship to Legolas as the spent lots of time together. And as Dale Ann pointed out at chat tonight, Legolas did defend him to Haldir went they arrived at Lothlorien.
Gimli is so cute when he asks for a strand of Galadriel's hair (and she gave him 3... he must have been adorable)."...Celeborn gazed at the Dwarf in wonder" I wonder if wasn't just a little put off. If I had to choose the most practical gift, it would be Gimli's:
"...that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall no dominion."
One thing I like about Dwarves is their emotional side... anger, greed, bravery...you know exactly where they stand. (Aside: My son likes the Dwarves best in ME. He does great impressions of Gimli and The Hobbit dwarves - it cracks me up). At the end of the chapter..
"Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did know where the chief peril lay! ...Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
So melodramatic! So sweet.
LovedBeren
Just had to react to what's been said...
DaleAnn - So, why is it ok for Galadriel to test the motives of the Fellowship and not ok for Celeborn to test their resolve? Actually, it was nice of him to give everyone an opportunity to stay. When the mission is dire, a wise commander always gives the team members a last chance to step back out of the line. Call it a form of military compassion. Tolkien had to be aware of this practice. Though, only Tolkien knows if Aragorn discussed this offer with Celeborn before the meeting. Does not look like it to me. Emotional issues aside. This opportunity to back off helps the weaker members survive and gives the stronger members a better chance of survival. Cowards are not the only ones who are a danger or burden to a mission and their comrades. So are the walking wounded and the one's who need "to be protected". If they truely care about the others, this is is their chance to choose to stay behind too. On the emotional side, whether anyone stays or everyone goes, the team leaves recommitted. I don't think Celeborn would have made this offer himself if Aragorn had indeed stopped being just a guide and taken up command. The debate that followed indicates his indecision is effecting the others. Aragorn never seems to react to what Boromir is doing to the other's confidence in his leadership. After Celeborn speaks, Boromir has to say something. He always does. Celeborn handles this tendency pretty well until Boromir goes on about not needing advice. Then, C gets haughty and for his own satisfaction throws in a little foresight about just how Aragorn will make himself known as the true King to whom Boromir will have to bend a knee. Fortunately (unfortunately?), this remark is more guarded then what he said to Gimli. Just like before, Galadriel steps up and smoothes C's feathers. Why do I find this couple so much fun!
Luthien and CamilliaDanderfluff (luv that name) - You are so right about Gimli. His spirit has indeed grown. He sees past Galadriel's placating words as no dwarf before him. Even though, G did indeed "charm" him as was feared by Boromir for himself. IMHO, the elves look on in wonder not because he has the audacity to ask for a strand of hair, but because that is what an elf would do! (as elves have done) Never a dwarf! Everyone is taken by surprise, even Galadriel, that Gimli has transcended into their plane of thought. She can easily see that now "gold shall have no dominion" over him. Only after Lothlorien, not before despite their journeying together, could Legolas and Gimli become a true friends. They at last share more than bread or even a cause. They share a higher thought. Elves can be so condescending sometimes. Oh I should not have said that, darn it....
Redha
No indeed you should not... LOL Ok, raising to your bait....
But you're right, in a way, we - I mean they - can be condescending sometimes. I feel it is 'logical', in a sense, especially since I read the book on symbolism in LotR. If you imagine the Companions on a human body, Gimli is very 'low', meaning close to the earth, whereas Legolas is near the top. Oh. If I am not making sense, tell me, and I'll elaborate on this later - I'm kinda tired and should turn in...
Pearl