Post by MajahTR on Jan 21, 2009 9:32:22 GMT -6
The last chapter of FotR: The climax of this book. There is a lot going on here.
Interesting choice of words Aragorn uses when talking to Frodo. "Well Frodo," said Aragorn at last. "…Your own way you alone can choose….Such is your fate." It is Frodo's FATE to CHOOSE.
Frodo walks to a grassy space with a wide flat stone in the center. Rowan trees surrounded the area. In folklore, the Rowan is called the tree of protection. I did not think to check the symbolic folklore meanings of other tree species until the Rowan. It would have been interesting to see if there was a pattern in Tolkien's choices. (Oh, well, next time.) The wide flat stone in the center reminds me of an altar. He has a feeling of something unfriendly coming towards him.
It is Boromir. He attempts to win Frodo's sympathy and trust. "I was afraid for you….none should wander alone." "My heart too is heavy…May I stay…It would comfort me." "Two together might find wisdom." Boromir wishes to advise Frodo. "I wish to help you. You need counsel…Will you not take mine?"
He tries to minimize the importance of the Ring by calling it "so small a thing," and when Frodo refuses to show it to him; he says "I care not."
Boromir states that Frodo's thoughts are not his own, "Gandalf, Elrond---all these folk have taught you to say so." He disparages Elves, half-elves and Wizards while building up Men. "…I doubt if they are wise and not merely timid….True hearted Men, they will not be corrupted. We…have been staunch through long years of trial. We do not desire the power …only strength to defend ourselves, strength in a just cause." This portion of the speech reminds me of Saruman's political speech and maybe if he continued in this vein Frodo might have been tempted to hand it over.
But, then Boromir blows it. He sees himself as a great leader with the "power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!" He forgot Frodo for a time and speaking loudly, has a vision of himself as a mighty king -- and note, no longer a Steward. Similarly, Galadriel saw a vision of herself as a "Dark Queen" and later Sam sees himself as a "Warrior Gardener".
Using Frodo's fear of walking into Mordor, by himself, on his own, Boromir tries again to convince him that he really doesn't know his own mind. "…my friend…You say that you are afraid…is it not really your good sense that revolts."
And tries a bit of logic: "My city is not far …just a little further from there to Mordor than from here…You need news…You need rest."
Boromir tries a different tactic and states "I am a true man, neither thief nor tracker." (As an aside: I wanted to get a clear sense of what Tolkien meant by "tracker". Some appropriate synonyms are: chaser, follower, shadow.) "I give you my word…lend me the Ring."
Next Boromir demands the Ring. "It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should have been mine. Give it to me!" He springs at Frodo. Boromir would become a thief. Tolkien describes him: "His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes." This reminds me of Bilbo's face in Rivendell when he wanted to see the Ring.
Boromir has hit bottom. "Miserable Trickster!" I can hear Gollum. "Curse you and all Halflings to death and darkness."
"Come back! A madness took me, but it has passed." Has Boromir truly recovered at this point or would he assault Frodo again?
Going through this progression of Boromir's reasoning has really worn me out. However, I'm glad I did it. It seems to me that the Ring was truly behind the madness because of the certain similarities to other characters that I see. I'm also, looking forward to reading about Denethor in the other books and want to come back to this for comparison sake.
With the Ring on his finger, Frodo runs to the High Seat of Amon Hen, the Seat of Seeing. First we get a vision on a large scale of what is happening in Middle Earth. The affects of war are seen everywhere and I feel nearly hopeless when I read it. But, Frodo feels hope when he beholds Minas Tirith. Quickly, all hope leaves when he looks at Barad-dur.
Frodo feels Sauron. I love the line "He heard himself crying out: Never, Never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you?" (There has been discussion on the "Confusion on the Barrows" thread that this line could impact. Hint, hint -- meaning: everybody go take a look at the thread.) I am certain that the first part is Frodo himself speaking -- "Never, Never!" Recently, while researching for this study, it was suggested that the Ring itself answers with the "Verily I come." I thought it was Frodo bending to Sauron's will. At this point we do not know that it is Gandalf speaking in Frodo's mind with the line "Take it off." Gandalf diverts Sauron's attention long enough for Frodo to have a moment to himself, as himself. This is an example of how Good works in comparison with Evil. Gandalf will not force Frodo to do the right thing. All he does is clear the path, so that Frodo may use his free will to make a choice.
Just as Frodo wants to protect the Shire, he feels the same towards the company. I think this is his greatest strength, and as we know certainly his motivation for taking on this task. He says "Some I cannot trust, and those I can are too dear to me." He names the other Hobbits and Strider. He names Boromir as one fallen to evil, but nowhere mentions Gimli and Legolas. He must feel that they would be next to fall.
It is interesting to see that the company was sitting in a circle. Bonds among the fellowship have grown. Boromir sat outside the circle for a time before he went off to search for Frodo. He alone, seems to not made, or had, any friends.
As the company debates the route to take and Frodo's choices, Sam of course, understands what is really going on in Frodo's mind. Tolkien gives us a very clear picture of the struggle to make the decisions that the Fellowship must make. When it gets down to it though, the only three that truly made choices are Boromir in trying to acquire the Ring, Frodo in leaving and Sam in following.
Poor Aragorn! He's not feeling too much like a good leader and he can't even prevent the company from panicking over Frodo's disappearance. But, he does get Boromir moving again in ordering him to protect Merry and Pippin.
Sam, alone, understands Frodo. There is no hesitation in him as he flings himself into the water after Frodo. Throughout the book, Tolkien has continually mentioned Sam's feelings about water. We can admire his deep devotion.
They paddle their way across the river and they set off to the Land of Shadow….
DA
I can't help but compare the encounters Frodo has in this chapter with the temptation Jesus has in the wilderness with the devil just before going into his public ministry. I am sure that someone already has, but again I will indulge myself with the knowledge that Tolkien had deep Christian beliefs. Please know that I don't see Frodo as a Christ-like figure, but only the test given to him was similar to a biblical passage he knew quite well. Briefly I'll put on my "Sunday school teacher" hat to recap this incident:
Jesus is thrust into the wilderness (led by the holy Spirit) where he fasts and prays for 40 days. There Satan tempts (tests) him to "come into his glory" ahead of schedule altering the path of his destiny. These three temptations (tests) that include physical and emotional temptations. (if you are interested, these passages are in the Gospel of Matthew ch. 4 and Gospel of Luke ch. 4) - Scholars liken this experience as a test rather than temptation since they feel that Jesus could not be "tempted" in a real sense... A simile often used is that a bridge builder tests to stability of bridge not to break it, but to prove that it can withstand what it was built to do. In this way Jesus now fulfill his destiny.
(1) Frodo is about to go out on his own to Mordor to fulfill his destiny Boromir's offer to take the ring would relieve Frodo's of the ring and the burden of fear. But He sees a glimpse of the evil the ring would have on men... going to Minas Tirth was out of the question. This test of will was similar to the Jesus' first test of satisfying his hunger by turning the stones to bread.
(3) The next place he ends up is in the seat of Amon Hen where he can see all the kingdoms of the world... Two powers strove in him... those voices were interesting... if he kept the Ring on it would fall in the hands of the Enemy. When he resolved to take off the ring, he was weary, but his will was firm and his heart lighter. ...like Jesus with the devil at the top of the temple viewing the kingdoms of the world - bow down and worship me (Satan) - Jesus resolved not to and stated plainly that he served the Lord God.
(3) Then he briefly contemplates going back to the rest of the fellowship but, knows that they would plead for him to go back to Minas Tirth and thereby changing the destiny he knows is his: Going on to Mordor...this is the weakest of my analogy but I see it as Jesus refusing throw himself off of the temple to be saved by angels knowing that it was a futile test of will.
I see these 3 tests of his will as tests and not temptations (I see no evidence that Frodo would fail) and he left feeling relieved and resolved to do what he was destined to do. Frodo was well prepared emotional to take on the task of going on to Mordor alone.
Which brings me to Sam...At the end of the both passages in Gospels angels came to minister to Jesus after his test... Sam will minister to Frodo by insisting on coming with him the rest of the journey.
"Plan as a pikestaff it is, but it's no good Sam Gamgee putting in his spoke just now... What's the good of Minas Tirth anyway? ...But Mr. Frodo, he knows he's got to find the Cracks of Doom, if he can. But he's afraid. --I wanna friend that understands me like that --- Now it's come to the point, he's just plain terrified. That's what his trouble is...
and later...
...Where to" Off East. Not without Sam" Yes without even his Sam. That's hard, cruel hard. Sam passed his hand over his eyes, brushing away the tears.
My sons cry at the end of the movie when Sam ploughs through the water. I asked my oldest (15) why this was so emotional for him. He says it makes him think of his friends and what they would do for him and he would do for them. All of the hobbits were willing to go to Mordor, but only Sam understood what it would take to get there. I remembered back to Shortcut to Mushrooms when Sam talks about the conversation with Gildor and going back to the Shire:
Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir if you understand me."
A question: Was it just the ring or a combination of being in that seat and the ring that gave Frodo the power to see a panoramic view of the turmoil of ME?
Aragorn says of the "...high seat upon Amon Hen...I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us."
DA: I think your right that Gimli and Legolas might have been next.
Thanks y'all
Luthien (Sarah)
Interesting choice of words Aragorn uses when talking to Frodo. "Well Frodo," said Aragorn at last. "…Your own way you alone can choose….Such is your fate." It is Frodo's FATE to CHOOSE.
Frodo walks to a grassy space with a wide flat stone in the center. Rowan trees surrounded the area. In folklore, the Rowan is called the tree of protection. I did not think to check the symbolic folklore meanings of other tree species until the Rowan. It would have been interesting to see if there was a pattern in Tolkien's choices. (Oh, well, next time.) The wide flat stone in the center reminds me of an altar. He has a feeling of something unfriendly coming towards him.
It is Boromir. He attempts to win Frodo's sympathy and trust. "I was afraid for you….none should wander alone." "My heart too is heavy…May I stay…It would comfort me." "Two together might find wisdom." Boromir wishes to advise Frodo. "I wish to help you. You need counsel…Will you not take mine?"
He tries to minimize the importance of the Ring by calling it "so small a thing," and when Frodo refuses to show it to him; he says "I care not."
Boromir states that Frodo's thoughts are not his own, "Gandalf, Elrond---all these folk have taught you to say so." He disparages Elves, half-elves and Wizards while building up Men. "…I doubt if they are wise and not merely timid….True hearted Men, they will not be corrupted. We…have been staunch through long years of trial. We do not desire the power …only strength to defend ourselves, strength in a just cause." This portion of the speech reminds me of Saruman's political speech and maybe if he continued in this vein Frodo might have been tempted to hand it over.
But, then Boromir blows it. He sees himself as a great leader with the "power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!" He forgot Frodo for a time and speaking loudly, has a vision of himself as a mighty king -- and note, no longer a Steward. Similarly, Galadriel saw a vision of herself as a "Dark Queen" and later Sam sees himself as a "Warrior Gardener".
Using Frodo's fear of walking into Mordor, by himself, on his own, Boromir tries again to convince him that he really doesn't know his own mind. "…my friend…You say that you are afraid…is it not really your good sense that revolts."
And tries a bit of logic: "My city is not far …just a little further from there to Mordor than from here…You need news…You need rest."
Boromir tries a different tactic and states "I am a true man, neither thief nor tracker." (As an aside: I wanted to get a clear sense of what Tolkien meant by "tracker". Some appropriate synonyms are: chaser, follower, shadow.) "I give you my word…lend me the Ring."
Next Boromir demands the Ring. "It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should have been mine. Give it to me!" He springs at Frodo. Boromir would become a thief. Tolkien describes him: "His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes." This reminds me of Bilbo's face in Rivendell when he wanted to see the Ring.
Boromir has hit bottom. "Miserable Trickster!" I can hear Gollum. "Curse you and all Halflings to death and darkness."
"Come back! A madness took me, but it has passed." Has Boromir truly recovered at this point or would he assault Frodo again?
Going through this progression of Boromir's reasoning has really worn me out. However, I'm glad I did it. It seems to me that the Ring was truly behind the madness because of the certain similarities to other characters that I see. I'm also, looking forward to reading about Denethor in the other books and want to come back to this for comparison sake.
With the Ring on his finger, Frodo runs to the High Seat of Amon Hen, the Seat of Seeing. First we get a vision on a large scale of what is happening in Middle Earth. The affects of war are seen everywhere and I feel nearly hopeless when I read it. But, Frodo feels hope when he beholds Minas Tirith. Quickly, all hope leaves when he looks at Barad-dur.
Frodo feels Sauron. I love the line "He heard himself crying out: Never, Never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you?" (There has been discussion on the "Confusion on the Barrows" thread that this line could impact. Hint, hint -- meaning: everybody go take a look at the thread.) I am certain that the first part is Frodo himself speaking -- "Never, Never!" Recently, while researching for this study, it was suggested that the Ring itself answers with the "Verily I come." I thought it was Frodo bending to Sauron's will. At this point we do not know that it is Gandalf speaking in Frodo's mind with the line "Take it off." Gandalf diverts Sauron's attention long enough for Frodo to have a moment to himself, as himself. This is an example of how Good works in comparison with Evil. Gandalf will not force Frodo to do the right thing. All he does is clear the path, so that Frodo may use his free will to make a choice.
Just as Frodo wants to protect the Shire, he feels the same towards the company. I think this is his greatest strength, and as we know certainly his motivation for taking on this task. He says "Some I cannot trust, and those I can are too dear to me." He names the other Hobbits and Strider. He names Boromir as one fallen to evil, but nowhere mentions Gimli and Legolas. He must feel that they would be next to fall.
It is interesting to see that the company was sitting in a circle. Bonds among the fellowship have grown. Boromir sat outside the circle for a time before he went off to search for Frodo. He alone, seems to not made, or had, any friends.
As the company debates the route to take and Frodo's choices, Sam of course, understands what is really going on in Frodo's mind. Tolkien gives us a very clear picture of the struggle to make the decisions that the Fellowship must make. When it gets down to it though, the only three that truly made choices are Boromir in trying to acquire the Ring, Frodo in leaving and Sam in following.
Poor Aragorn! He's not feeling too much like a good leader and he can't even prevent the company from panicking over Frodo's disappearance. But, he does get Boromir moving again in ordering him to protect Merry and Pippin.
Sam, alone, understands Frodo. There is no hesitation in him as he flings himself into the water after Frodo. Throughout the book, Tolkien has continually mentioned Sam's feelings about water. We can admire his deep devotion.
They paddle their way across the river and they set off to the Land of Shadow….
DA
I can't help but compare the encounters Frodo has in this chapter with the temptation Jesus has in the wilderness with the devil just before going into his public ministry. I am sure that someone already has, but again I will indulge myself with the knowledge that Tolkien had deep Christian beliefs. Please know that I don't see Frodo as a Christ-like figure, but only the test given to him was similar to a biblical passage he knew quite well. Briefly I'll put on my "Sunday school teacher" hat to recap this incident:
Jesus is thrust into the wilderness (led by the holy Spirit) where he fasts and prays for 40 days. There Satan tempts (tests) him to "come into his glory" ahead of schedule altering the path of his destiny. These three temptations (tests) that include physical and emotional temptations. (if you are interested, these passages are in the Gospel of Matthew ch. 4 and Gospel of Luke ch. 4) - Scholars liken this experience as a test rather than temptation since they feel that Jesus could not be "tempted" in a real sense... A simile often used is that a bridge builder tests to stability of bridge not to break it, but to prove that it can withstand what it was built to do. In this way Jesus now fulfill his destiny.
(1) Frodo is about to go out on his own to Mordor to fulfill his destiny Boromir's offer to take the ring would relieve Frodo's of the ring and the burden of fear. But He sees a glimpse of the evil the ring would have on men... going to Minas Tirth was out of the question. This test of will was similar to the Jesus' first test of satisfying his hunger by turning the stones to bread.
(3) The next place he ends up is in the seat of Amon Hen where he can see all the kingdoms of the world... Two powers strove in him... those voices were interesting... if he kept the Ring on it would fall in the hands of the Enemy. When he resolved to take off the ring, he was weary, but his will was firm and his heart lighter. ...like Jesus with the devil at the top of the temple viewing the kingdoms of the world - bow down and worship me (Satan) - Jesus resolved not to and stated plainly that he served the Lord God.
(3) Then he briefly contemplates going back to the rest of the fellowship but, knows that they would plead for him to go back to Minas Tirth and thereby changing the destiny he knows is his: Going on to Mordor...this is the weakest of my analogy but I see it as Jesus refusing throw himself off of the temple to be saved by angels knowing that it was a futile test of will.
I see these 3 tests of his will as tests and not temptations (I see no evidence that Frodo would fail) and he left feeling relieved and resolved to do what he was destined to do. Frodo was well prepared emotional to take on the task of going on to Mordor alone.
Which brings me to Sam...At the end of the both passages in Gospels angels came to minister to Jesus after his test... Sam will minister to Frodo by insisting on coming with him the rest of the journey.
"Plan as a pikestaff it is, but it's no good Sam Gamgee putting in his spoke just now... What's the good of Minas Tirth anyway? ...But Mr. Frodo, he knows he's got to find the Cracks of Doom, if he can. But he's afraid. --I wanna friend that understands me like that --- Now it's come to the point, he's just plain terrified. That's what his trouble is...
and later...
...Where to" Off East. Not without Sam" Yes without even his Sam. That's hard, cruel hard. Sam passed his hand over his eyes, brushing away the tears.
My sons cry at the end of the movie when Sam ploughs through the water. I asked my oldest (15) why this was so emotional for him. He says it makes him think of his friends and what they would do for him and he would do for them. All of the hobbits were willing to go to Mordor, but only Sam understood what it would take to get there. I remembered back to Shortcut to Mushrooms when Sam talks about the conversation with Gildor and going back to the Shire:
Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir if you understand me."
A question: Was it just the ring or a combination of being in that seat and the ring that gave Frodo the power to see a panoramic view of the turmoil of ME?
Aragorn says of the "...high seat upon Amon Hen...I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us."
DA: I think your right that Gimli and Legolas might have been next.
Thanks y'all
Luthien (Sarah)