Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 10:20:17 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 3/3/2003 2:06 AM
It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace ...
What are we witnessing here and why was it important for Tolkien to exhibit this scene? How might this moment change Sam and do you believe that any resulting change will be beneficial or detrimental to our beloved hobbit?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/3/2003 10:05 AM
I suspect that Tolkien's own experiences of war might be an important reason for this scene.
Anyway, as to what this means for Sam... I think this is the first time that the brave Hobbit is confronted with real war. I mean, they have been under attack many times already, and he had to defend his life then, but now he witnesses a real battle... He is confronted with the horror and the extent of war now, or this particular battle makes him fully realize what is at stake. It hits him with full force now.
He starts thinking about the motives of the other side, and whether these men think they are doing good... He wonders about their families, their lives, because he realizes what he has left at home himself. Anyhow, in my opinion, this ability to empathize with the other forces, is what makes him good; it is what distinguishes good from evil. An evil being won't care about the things Sam is wondering about, Evl is indifferent about his "paws". So, in the end, I think this will strengthen Sam, and make him more determent, and even more brave.
Alaere
* * *
From: Artemis Sent: 3/7/2003 12:58 PM
I think that at this point in his journey, Sam was just starting to realize that there are gray areas. For most of his life, up to this point, he was only exposed to the opposite ends of the spectrum, good and evil. He has seen how things that are basically good can be corrupted by evil (like elves being turned into orcs thru torture). But for the first time he is seeing some middle ground. Were these men basically good? And if so, what was their motive for joining forces with evil?
It seems to me that Tolkien is taking jabs at man's duality. Over the history of mankind, there have been "followers" who were decent folk but got caught up in a movement behind a madman. How did Hitler get so many to follow him?
I think that this is a major turning point in Sam's life. He is beginning to realize that any good thing can be corrupted by evil. It has to ultimately change his view of Gollum, and start to realize that it could happen even to him if he didn't take care and stay true.
* * *
From: jerseyshore Sent: 3/7/2003 6:14 PM
I found it interesting that this passage, in which the voice of the author is coming through loud and clear, was put in the words of our friend Sam. Tolkien had to have been talking of his own experiences and reactions when he wrote this scene. And it's Sam, not Frodo who is strongly identified with the author's personal thoughts. Fodder for the Sam as hero crowd?
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/9/2003 3:29 PM
Wow, great posts here. I agree with it all.
People can be misled (through lies or manipulation) by their leaders as many did during WWI, WWII or any other war for that matter. I'm sure many young soldiers have wondered, like Sam, whether the dead man was really evil… or lies or threats cause him to fight this war.
(I’m not sure the rest of this post will make sense to anyone by me… but I try to write coherently)
I remember reading this paragraph in high school about the same time I was assigned to read “Red Badge of Courage” by Stephen Crane in my English class. I was struck by the similarity of young union recruit Henry Fleming’s experience with the horrors of the American Civil War, and Sam’s reaction to the dead Southron within this small paragraph.
I thought there must be something common with the reaction of eager young soldiers when faced with realities war (Although at the time I didn’t know anything about Tolkien’s war experience). For Sam, up to this point the Enemy has been easy to identify (agreeing with Artemis). Sam’s confronting the reality of death of this man contrasts Samwise “the brave” who is eager to protect his master at any cost to himself. (Another note is that common in both stories is the confusion both experienced while mortal combat surrounded them.)
Sam is about to face some very dark hours, and the reality and decisions he'll need to make will lay heavy on him alone (Artremis). I think this situation is the beginning of the true test of “Samwise the Brave.”
Similarly in RBoC, Henry Fleming’s hours of cold reality put him into crisis, but eventually learned to deal with his fear and demonstrated (and learned the meaning of) true courage. Of course Sam learns a similar lesson in courage.
Luthien (LovesBeren)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/9/2003 3:54 PM
I neglected to mention (and meant to) that Stephen Crane did not actually fight in the American Civil War, but after the success of Red Badge of Courgage became a war correspondent. However, the book was praised by civil war vetrans for capturing the realities of that bloody war. I only mention it because of Tolkien's war experience.
Luthien (LovesBeren)
It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace ...
What are we witnessing here and why was it important for Tolkien to exhibit this scene? How might this moment change Sam and do you believe that any resulting change will be beneficial or detrimental to our beloved hobbit?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/3/2003 10:05 AM
I suspect that Tolkien's own experiences of war might be an important reason for this scene.
Anyway, as to what this means for Sam... I think this is the first time that the brave Hobbit is confronted with real war. I mean, they have been under attack many times already, and he had to defend his life then, but now he witnesses a real battle... He is confronted with the horror and the extent of war now, or this particular battle makes him fully realize what is at stake. It hits him with full force now.
He starts thinking about the motives of the other side, and whether these men think they are doing good... He wonders about their families, their lives, because he realizes what he has left at home himself. Anyhow, in my opinion, this ability to empathize with the other forces, is what makes him good; it is what distinguishes good from evil. An evil being won't care about the things Sam is wondering about, Evl is indifferent about his "paws". So, in the end, I think this will strengthen Sam, and make him more determent, and even more brave.
Alaere
* * *
From: Artemis Sent: 3/7/2003 12:58 PM
I think that at this point in his journey, Sam was just starting to realize that there are gray areas. For most of his life, up to this point, he was only exposed to the opposite ends of the spectrum, good and evil. He has seen how things that are basically good can be corrupted by evil (like elves being turned into orcs thru torture). But for the first time he is seeing some middle ground. Were these men basically good? And if so, what was their motive for joining forces with evil?
It seems to me that Tolkien is taking jabs at man's duality. Over the history of mankind, there have been "followers" who were decent folk but got caught up in a movement behind a madman. How did Hitler get so many to follow him?
I think that this is a major turning point in Sam's life. He is beginning to realize that any good thing can be corrupted by evil. It has to ultimately change his view of Gollum, and start to realize that it could happen even to him if he didn't take care and stay true.
* * *
From: jerseyshore Sent: 3/7/2003 6:14 PM
I found it interesting that this passage, in which the voice of the author is coming through loud and clear, was put in the words of our friend Sam. Tolkien had to have been talking of his own experiences and reactions when he wrote this scene. And it's Sam, not Frodo who is strongly identified with the author's personal thoughts. Fodder for the Sam as hero crowd?
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/9/2003 3:29 PM
Wow, great posts here. I agree with it all.
People can be misled (through lies or manipulation) by their leaders as many did during WWI, WWII or any other war for that matter. I'm sure many young soldiers have wondered, like Sam, whether the dead man was really evil… or lies or threats cause him to fight this war.
(I’m not sure the rest of this post will make sense to anyone by me… but I try to write coherently)
I remember reading this paragraph in high school about the same time I was assigned to read “Red Badge of Courage” by Stephen Crane in my English class. I was struck by the similarity of young union recruit Henry Fleming’s experience with the horrors of the American Civil War, and Sam’s reaction to the dead Southron within this small paragraph.
I thought there must be something common with the reaction of eager young soldiers when faced with realities war (Although at the time I didn’t know anything about Tolkien’s war experience). For Sam, up to this point the Enemy has been easy to identify (agreeing with Artemis). Sam’s confronting the reality of death of this man contrasts Samwise “the brave” who is eager to protect his master at any cost to himself. (Another note is that common in both stories is the confusion both experienced while mortal combat surrounded them.)
Sam is about to face some very dark hours, and the reality and decisions he'll need to make will lay heavy on him alone (Artremis). I think this situation is the beginning of the true test of “Samwise the Brave.”
Similarly in RBoC, Henry Fleming’s hours of cold reality put him into crisis, but eventually learned to deal with his fear and demonstrated (and learned the meaning of) true courage. Of course Sam learns a similar lesson in courage.
Luthien (LovesBeren)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/9/2003 3:54 PM
I neglected to mention (and meant to) that Stephen Crane did not actually fight in the American Civil War, but after the success of Red Badge of Courgage became a war correspondent. However, the book was praised by civil war vetrans for capturing the realities of that bloody war. I only mention it because of Tolkien's war experience.
Luthien (LovesBeren)