3rd Anniverary Sil Chat

[Desi Baggins]

For those of you that missed the Sil Chat I have saved it here for you to read and add to! Enjoy!!!

Storrmrider : Vickie you said you were liking The Sil even better than LOTR so far that you had read
Storrmrider : Why do you like it better?
Majahsheart : yeah i think it is more fiary taleie
Majahsheart : aLthough all the different names for the characs and peoples get confusing
Desi-Baggins : One of these days I will get a copy and try reading it......I still need to finish UT
Majahsheart : but i havent got too far into the elven lineage yet
Storrmrider : yes a lot of people don't like that
Storrmrider : all the names, that is
Storrmrider : Desi, you can borrow mine when I am done with it
Desi-Baggins : ok
Storrmrider : I am to the point where Melkor has just gotten out of jail
Storrmrider : and Feanor is starting to create the Silmarils
Majahsheart : i think because he rewrote thsi so many times before publishing it it is almost like he writes it like we should know all the references
Majahsheart : yeah you got ahead of me then
Majahsheart : i am stuck on the elves
Storrmrider : and I think he adjusted things to tie in with LOTR and the Hobbit, too
Storrmrider : how are you stuck?
Majahsheart : no time
Storrmrider : learning all their family trees and who is from what branch
Majahsheart : no time
Desi-Baggins : When I read stuff on the different types of elves I get confused
Majahsheart : yeah that is what i meant by them having seveal names
Storrmrider : yeah, don't try to figure it out or remember it, especially the first time you read it
Majahsheart : like the Eldar are the first ones and then they are Quendi cause that is what they called themselves
Storrmrider : many times the names are given for each type of language for each race of Elf
Majahsheart : and maybe later when they all start splitting up i will get it
Desi-Baggins : confusing
Storrmrider : have you looked at the family trees in the back of the book?
Majahsheart : like i said my questions are too early cause i think they will be answered as i read
Storrmrider : That kind of helps, but not much
Majahsheart : yeah i looked but right now they dont
Majahsheart : i keep thinking Galadriel had two husbands
Storrmrider : there is the age old question....which one of the Valar would you have liked to learn from?
Majahsheart : but i think there were two Galadriels?
Majahsheart : i have taken a "shine" to Valar
Storrmrider : Why do you think Galadriel had two husbands?
Majahsheart : well it seemed i saw her name in two different places n the chart
Majahsheart : thats when i quite reading cause i got to busy
Storrmrider : I have to go and list all the Valar and what they represent, live, and their colors or appearances on a thread somewhere
Majahsheart : they dont confuse me too much except they have several names too
Majahsheart : like Valar is \elbereth
Storrmrider : yes, their names are the ancient Quenya and then Sindarin or Teleri, etc. as the languages developed
Storrmrider : Varda is Elbereth
Storrmrider : Valar is the name for all of the Valar
Majahsheart : yeah that i can get i just have to memorise them better as we go around
Majahsheart : sorry Varda
Storrmrider : or Yavanna is Kelemntari (I think I got the right names together!)
Majahsheart : see what i mean rofl
Storrmrider : yes, I do!
Storrmrider : And a chart would be very nice to have handy
Majahsheart : i have orgulas’ chart but i dont have it here i think it is still in y car
Storrmrider : How far are you into The Sil now anyway
Majahsheart : chap5
Storrmrider : oh ok you did not see Melkor get thrown into jail or Feanor start creating the Sils yet then
Storrmrider : I just finished those chapters this past week
Majahsheart : no i said you were ahead of me
Storrmrider : wait MElkor just was thrown into jail at the end of Chapter 5....have you gotten thru it or just starting it
Majahsheart : just in it
Storrmrider : now that you are reading The Sil, wouldn't it be cool to do art contests on the Valar and Valier?
Majahsheart : yep already thinking
Storrmrider : I like how each Valar/Valier has a certain area that they are in charge of creating or control over
Storrmrider : It is sort of like the Ancient Greek Gods
Majahsheart : right i saw that a lot
Storrmrider : Althought the ancient Greek Gods were jealous, self centered, and ready to anger
Storrmrider : and the Valar/Valier are more mellow
Majahsheart : true this dont seem to be that way except Melkor
Storrmrider : they don't seem to get too angry at the Children only at Melkor
Storrmrider : right Melkor is evil, so he is going to be the exception! lol!
Majahsheart : right and the greek gods seemed to liek to tamper more
Majahsheart : where the valar seem to want to just make things ready
Storrmrider : and they really love the things that they were in charge of creating, too
Majahsheart : right almost too much so....
Storrmrider : too much because when the lamps were destroyed they were especially saddened
8Fangorn_Eldest2 has returned.
Majahsheart : right
Majahsheart : and Aule was sad his dwarves had to be put to bed
Majahsheart : wb Fang
Storrmrider : it was cool how they created Telperion and
Storrmrider : Laurelin
Majahsheart : yeah i wasnt sure those were so early in the story
Storrmrider : Yavanna and Nienna together
Fangorn_Eldest2 :
Majahsheart : and of course until i read this much i didnt know that is where the stars came form
Storrmrider : Well, yes, Aule was. But he understood and sacrificed them
Majahsheart : how is your keyboard responding \fang?
Storrmrider : and Iluvatar had a soft spot over that and kept them
Majahsheart : but he was sad still
Fangorn_Eldest2 : better than me, lol
Majahsheart : made me like the dwarves more
Desi-Baggins still listening and reading
Storrmrider : well, yes, was he sad because he disobeyed and jumped ahead of himself

[Desi Baggins]

Majahsheart : your electrical currents be off then friend?
Majahsheart : prob that yes...
Storrmrider : ZZZZZAAAAPPPP!
Majahsheart : cause he knew better but he was so anxious to have kids!
Storrmrider : yes, and if Aule could create a people, why couldn't Melkor or the other Valar?
Desi-Baggins : that is how the dwarves were created, he jumped ahead, right?
Storrmrider : Melkor had to corrupt the Elves that he snared to make the orcs
Storrmrider : yes, that is how they were created Desi
Storrmrider : He made them from the rock and stone and of the earth so they would be strong and tuff and able to face Melkor
Majahsheart : right
Storrmrider : so why couldn't Melkor have created a race fresh from scratch like Aule?
Storrmrider : I wonder! That might be a good topic to discuss on the forum
Fangorn_Eldest2 : because Melkor could not
Majahsheart : i got the feeling that the elves that were lured away were ready to be lured away
Fangorn_Eldest2 : he could only mock things
Storrmrider : yes but WHY?
Fangorn_Eldest2 : that is why he was so angry
Majahsheart : right kinda like Pet Cemetary
Desi-Baggins : Yeah why could he not make and only able to mock
Fangorn_Eldest2 : he wanted to make his own music but could not do it as well as illuvitar
Storrmrider : What was Melkor able to create? Was he like Manwe? or Aule?
Majahsheart : where the people could come back but they werent quite right
Majahsheart : he was more like manwe
Majahsheart : wasnt he?
Storrmrider : Melkor turned all the beauty of the other Ainur into things he thought would be ugly.....like water into snow and ice
Storrmrider : and he raised the earth into mountains...
Storrmrider : so perhaps he was more like a combination of Manwe and Aule
Storrmrider : Wait Ulmo is water
Storrmrider : not Aule
Majahsheart : i think it said they were pretty equal
Majahsheart : yeah Aule is the earth dude! lol
Storrmrider : but he could build and create his underground Utumno, too
Storrmrider : so perhaps Melkor had many attributes of all the rest of the Valar
Storrmrider : a little bit of each of the other Valar, I mean
Storrmrider : I kind of surprised me that Aule was able to create the Dwarves
Fangorn_Eldest2 : but melkors creations were usually san evil mockery
Storrmrider : that kind of thru me for a loop
Majahsheart : i imagine maybe they all could
Majahsheart : create beings i mean
Storrmrider : yes, they were Fang, but Iluvatar was able to turn his mockery into beauty, too
Majahsheart : but didnt attempt it cuase they believed in the plan
Storrmrider : that could be, but then why would Melkor be exempt from being able to if the others could?
Majahsheart : i dont think any were supposed to i just hink they could have
Majahsheart : and he did but his anger made them bad
Fangorn_Eldest2 : I don't think he could make sa 'good' race or maybe did not want to, prefering to mock the other valasrs creations
Storrmrider : Yes, I guess so.....
Majahsheart : where aules love made it a good thing
Majahsheart : right like i said something was missing
Storrmrider : evn the Dwarves are not beautiful and fair like the Elves and Men, but they have their own kind of rugged beauty
Fangorn_Eldest2 : and I think what was missing was free will
Majahsheart : you know Lucifer was supposed to be an angel next to God at one time too
Storrmrider : yes
Majahsheart : ahhhhhh yes free will
Fangorn_Eldest2 : his creations slways seemed to be forced to be loyal to him
Majahsheart : i wondered if more of that would come out as the story unfolds
Storrmrider : or he made them submit in vile ways
Storrmrider : with vile ways to make them submit
Storrmrider : vile methjods
Storrmrider : well, what else can we discuss then....? Do you have something on your mind?
Storrmrider : What about the Ents and Huoron creations
Majahsheart : no i just need to have more time to study as i read
Storrmrider : they fit in with the Dwarf creation more or less
Majahsheart : and am i right that what is to be the ents were created at the beginning too
Majahsheart : ?
Storrmrider : yes, but I think that was added in later as LOTR was published
Storrmrider : lol
Majahsheart : see thats another thing
Majahsheart : i dont get all these editions
Majahsheart : obviously the lastest he published is how he wanted it?
Storrmrider : I think the whole Silmarillion was intended to be a lot different in its purpose
Majahsheart : so why do people go back to the earlier additions all the time
Majahsheart : yes i agree that si why he worked on it for so long
Storrmrider : JRRT, if I am correct, started writing The Sil before the Hobbit
Majahsheart : yes he did
Storrmrider : then when the Hobbit was a hit and people asked for more hobbits, he started in on LOTR
Storrmrider : He once tried to send some of The Sil to his publishers and they did not really like it
Storrmrider : so I think that was when he thought about tying everything together
Storrmrider : and then he went back and did a lot of editing and adding
Majahsheart : it kinda sounded like they forced him to write a sequel
Storrmrider : well, that is too bad that he had to be under pressure to do it, but it is lucky for us that he did do it!
Storrmrider : It is such a great story!
Majahsheart : but he wrote it his way and that is why the trilogy came out?
Storrmrider : I think people wanted more Hobbits after The Hobbit came out and that is why he wrote LOTR trilogy
Majahsheart : right a wonderful story
Majahsheart : yeah thats what i meant when i said they forced him to write a sequel cause they liked the hobbit so well
Majahsheart : but he wanted to keep working on the Sil
Storrmrider : then he tied the Sil in to the Hobbit and LOTR so that people would want to read it since it was not a big hit with his publishers the first time the way he had first written it
Storrmrider : yes, so The Sil probably would have been alot different if he hadn't tied it in with the other books
Majahsheart : right
Storrmrider : yes, the Sil was his real passion, or that is what I understand
Majahsheart : more like a fairy tale of mythology

[Desi Baggins]

Storrmrider : yes
Majahsheart : yeah i understood that too
8Fangorn_Eldest2 has returned.
Majahsheart : hello Fang
Desi-Baggins : They talked about how he was asked to write another Hobbit story at Marquette
Majahsheart : oh here i have a question
Fangorn_Eldest2 :
Majahsheart : dont laugh
Majahsheart : how is it pronounced
Storrmrider : How did Yavanna know that the Children of Iluvatar would ruin her creations, the plants, trees, flowers, etc
Majahsheart : it was in the song?
Storrmrider : how is what pronounced? Silmarillion
Majahsheart : yes
Storrmrider : Sil Mar Ill eeon I think
Storrmrider : what song?
Storrmrider : the music?
Majahsheart : that is how i thought Sil =sill as in window
Majahsheart : the music
Majahsheart : yes
Storrmrider : did she think that Melkor would influence the Children to destroy things too?
Storrmrider : Or did she just realize they would use wood, etc., to build with?
Storrmrider : and eat....so the animals, too she was concerned about
Majahsheart : i think it was more what they would do like build etc
Storrmrider : I think she realized they would need to use those things that she had created and it worried her
Majahsheart : yes and also they would dig and mine etc
Storrmrider : I think she was afraid of the Dwarves of Aule
Majahsheart : i think they were naive to how much influence Melkor would eventually have. i think at first they just didnt want him to destroy the world they were creating
Majahsheart : yes she was afraid of what the dwarves would do that is why she went and tattled
Storrmrider : they were talking she said, "The children will have little love for the things of my love. They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father (aule)>"
Storrmrider : "They will delve in the earth, and the things that grow and live upon the earth they will not heed. Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity."
Majahsheart : where do you have these quotes?
Storrmrider : I just typed them from the book Chapter2 Of Aule and Yavanna
Majahsheart : ahhhh you have your book there
Storrmrider : toward the end of the chapter
Storrmrider : yes, not off the top of my head! lol!
Majahsheart : i thought maybe there was a \sil online somewhere
Storrmrider : good have the book handy for a discussion!
8Fanuidhol22 has joined the conversation.
Majahsheart : yeah well when i call Aule the earth dude you know that is off the top of mine lol
Storrmrider : well, that might work, too. but I don't know if Tolkien Estates would allow a Sil on line
Majahsheart : hello Fan
Fanuidhol22 : sorry that I am soooo late
Fangorn_Eldest2 : Welcome Fan
Majahsheart : i wish they would
Desi-Baggins : Hello! Great Sil discussion going on!
Fanuidhol22 : Hi everybody
Storrmrider : Hi Fan welcome back
Majahsheart : i cant type read and look in a book at the same time
Majahsheart : rofl
Storrmrider : yes, it gets complicated
Majahsheart falls off her story looking up a reference!
Storrmrider : Fan do you have any topics you would like to discuss on The Silmarillion?
Storrmrider : anything that pops into your head?
Fanuidhol22 : gosh, can't think of any...what were you talking about just now?
Storrmrider : The Dwarves, Ents, Melkor not being able to create children of his own and Aule could
Fanuidhol22 : ah
Storrmrider : how each Valar had a certain area they created and cared about
Majahsheart : i still dont think \\\\aule was supposed to either
Storrmrider : well, no he definately wasn;t.....Iluvatar was to be the only one who was to create the children
Majahsheart : like you said Illuvatar just spared his cause he felt for aule\
Fanuidhol22 : he fashioned manaquins (sp?)
Storrmrider : and that was why it surprised me that Aule could do it on the sly
Majahsheart : maniquin is good word for it
Majahsheart : they could create but not quite complete the creations?
Storrmrider : If Iluvatar was supposed to do all the Children creating, why did he give Aule the ability to do it?
Fanuidhol22 : I wonder if Melkor tried
Storrmrider : well, I think Aule completed his Dwarves, rough and rugged as they were
Majahsheart : i still bet they all could if they had tried
Storrmrider : I don't know that is says that he tried to create them fresh himself only that he corrupted the Elves into Orcs
Fanuidhol22 : right, Aule fashioned them from the memory
Majahsheart : maniquin is good word for it
Majahsheart : they could create but not quite complete the creations?
Storrmrider : If Iluvatar was supposed to do all the Children creating, why did he give Aule the ability to do it?
Fanuidhol22 : I wonder if Melkor tried
Storrmrider : well, I think Aule completed his Dwarves, rough and rugged as they were
Majahsheart : i still bet they all could if they had tried
Storrmrider : I don't know that is says that he tried to create them fresh himself only that he corrupted the Elves into Orcs
Fanuidhol22 : right, Aule fashioned them from the memory
Storrmrider : DNA not DNA
Storrmrider : DNA not DNS
Majahsheart : thats where the free will question comes in again
Fanuidhol22 : the Valar had free will....maybe?
Storrmrider : yep...that is what I was trying to get out of your guys
Fanuidhol22 : thinking alike
Majahsheart : we wondered about that earlier
Fangorn_Eldest2 : Don't forget Tolkien never mentions how orcs are bred to specification
Majahsheart : oh so you are palying teacher Storm?
Majahsheart : no he doesnt
Fangorn_Eldest2 : and there are no orc women in the story
Storrmrider : well, I remember some discussions somewhere in the past that I read
Majahsheart : i created a version tho lol for our role play story

[Desi Baggins]

Storrmrider : except orc women in Adv in ME RP
Majahsheart : right
Storrmrider : lol but that story is long dead now
Fanuidhol22 : I remember reading somewhere that Orcs procreated the old fashioned way
Majahsheart : we had the free will to create our own stories lol
Majahsheart : really Fan?
Fangorn_Eldest2 : so I assume most creations and breeding toke a more magical form
Storrmrider : interesting Fan....do you remember where you read that?
Majahsheart : i would be curious to know where that was?
Fanuidhol22 : on some message board somewhere
Majahsheart : ahhhhh i see
Storrmrider : Hmmm.....Melkor must have grabbed a few females along with the male Elves when he was corrupting them
Fanuidhol22 : I think it says it in one of the HoMe books.
Storrmrider : so Elves can have offspring.....so why not orcs
Majahsheart : ok here is another whining point
Majahsheart : i dont have the home series and prob never will
Storrmrider : Melkor had very large armies of orcs, too, so he could not have corrupted that many elves
Majahsheart : so i dont have all this additional info that JR's baby boy has brought about
Fangorn_Eldest2 : well, 'corrupted' is an operative term
Storrmrider : I will have to look in my HoME books to see if I find it somewhere
Majahsheart : so i guess i will never be able to be involved in these discussions
Fangorn_Eldest2 : I think he took their essence and used it to breed orcs
Majahsheart : cloning maybe Fang?
Storrmrider : aw.....I haven't read them all either....hardly cracked them open yet. just do research with them
Storrmrider : mad scientist
Fangorn_Eldest2 : perhaps a magical type of cloning
Majahsheart : well thats what i mean i cant do that in depth of research so i cant add anything new
Fanuidhol22 : I don't have them all, either
Majahsheart : maybe when i retire and come live with one of you i will read them
Storrmrider : but alot of the research is along the lines of altered material vs what was actually published
Fangorn_Eldest2 : I think if Tolkien had gotten more specific about these things, some of the magic and mystery would be lost
Majahsheart : right and Christopher's visisons too
Majahsheart : right almost dont want it that explained Fang
Storrmrider : yes, it gives us things to ponder
Majahsheart : it was like when all of us were complaining about which scense should or shouldnt have been in the movies
Majahsheart : everyone has different things that are ijportant
Majahsheart : important

Majahsheart : different persoanl visions
Storrmrider : how true
Fanuidhol22 : hold it. I got it it is in The Silmarillion
Storrmrider : oh good where?
Majahsheart : excuse me...i am not illiterate i am just typing too fast
Majahsheart : great
Fanuidhol22 : orcs had life and multiplied in the manner of the children of Iluvatar
Fanuidhol22 : sorry that should be in quotes
Storrmrider : oh what chapter is that in?
Fanuidhol22 : coming of the elves
Majahsheart : cool
Fanuidhol22 : right after Orome finds the elves
Storrmrider : in the paragraph of Melkor ensnare them, too
Majahsheart : thanks Fan
Fanuidhol22 : welcome
Majahsheart : i just read that a few weeks ago
Storrmrider : I did, too, but there is so much to take in in The Sil!
Fanuidhol22 : I haven't read S in over a year
Majahsheart : but i really am a bit out of my league
Storrmrider : The Sil was hard for me the first time I read it....this is only my second time
Fanuidhol22 : I am sooo confused between the movies and reading HoMe that I can't remember what is really in the books
Storrmrider : and it has been slow going
Majahsheart : i hear ya Fan
Fangorn_Eldest2 : yes, that is a problem sometimes Fan
Storrmrider : That is another reason I am kind of leary about reading HoME
Fangorn_Eldest2 : you get that picture in your head of an orc being born like a pod person, lol
Fanuidhol22 : It is interesting though Stormrider
Storrmrider : yes, it is...I have skimmed some of the Trotter stuff
Fanuidhol22 : there's been times that I wanted to start a thread but I don't know where
Storrmrider : a thread about what?

Fanuidhol22 : different things....like how PJ really used an earlier version of a few things...not on purpose though
Storrmrider : well, if it pertains to a particular book and it is a comment or idea from HoME, put it under the book that the topic is on
Fangorn_Eldest2 : And then there is the Ents.....who were said to be started by the Elves
Fanuidhol22 : Frodo did solve the riddle at the doors of Moria...before Merry got it
Storrmrider : yes, I always thought it was Frodo
Fanuidhol22 : ok Stormrider
Storrmrider : Merry?
Fanuidhol22 : thanks
Fanuidhol22 : Merry does in LotR
Storrmrider : did Merry say something about Mellon meaning Friend?
Fanuidhol22 : kind of in a way that made Gandalf think
Storrmrider : in the books? Merry solves it?
Storrmrider : I thought it WAS Frodo!
Fanuidhol22 : I'm going to double check
Fangorn_Eldest2 : with so many versions, it is easy to get confused
Majahsheart : so i am not a dip?
Majahsheart : well i am but that is another story
Fangorn_Eldest2 : we are in mixed company, so I will refrain from commenting , lol
Majahsheart starts a tnago with Fangorn and then dips him!
Storrmrider : Well, I have looked in my book and it just seems like Mellon came to Gandalf all on his own
Fangorn_Eldest2 : ooh....so I am your dip stick?
Majahsheart : hahaha
Storrmrider : lol
Majahsheart : better than chip dip!
Fanuidhol22 : a little later Gandalf says that Merry was on the right track
Fangorn_Eldest2 : or being as tipped stick
Storrmrider : I better back track in that passge then
Majahsheart : or a tipped outhouse
Fangorn_Eldest2 : then it would be hard to get back up again
Fanuidhol22 : Merry says what does it mean by speak friend....
Fanuidhol22 : and then Gandalf a page or two later figures it out
Storrmrider : I guess the way Merry read the inscription or said it, placing the commas in a different place when he said it
Storrmrider : it was "Speak, friend, and enter." rather than "Speak "friend"and enter."
Fanuidhol22 : every now and then I find something that interests me enough to write about it...but, like I said, I didin't know where to put things
Storrmrider : well, I guess put it in the forum of whatever book you read it from.
Storrmrider : Or if we need a new forum, we can create one too
Storrmrider : or there are the forums on places, peoples, things, too
Fangorn_Eldest2 : well, I have to leasve for a bit...............bbl
Storrmrider : ok Fang..
Majahsheart : ok see you Fang
Storrmrider : see you later
8Fangorn_Eldest2 has left the conversation.
Majahsheart : i have to go nap myself
Storrmrider : Actually the chat time is over now, isn't it?

[Desi Baggins]

And that's the chat so now feel free to post any of your thoughts or add to any of these!