WK 2 CH 2 - Lone-lands and castles

[Desi Baggins]

In this chapter the narrator says that they have now 'gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with and evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.'

What I want to know is whose old castle are these? What is the story behind them?


My guess as to where they are at this point in the story is some where around the East-West road past Bree and before Trollshaws. On my map in RotK I see 2 sets of hills that they might be talking about Weather Hills and South Downs. Now I need to look up some info on those place and see if I find any castle info...

[Hilary]

As Greenleaf mentioned in another thread, there have been several revisions to the original edition of The Hobbit, usually to bring the story into line with the history and/or geography of The Lord of the Rings.

Douglas Anderson in The Annotated Hobbit has a note regarding this passage:

In introducing the name Lone-lands into the 1966 edition of The Hobbit, Tolkien was providing a linguistic equivalent of the Sindarin Elvis name Eriador ("Wilderness"). which in the Lord of the Rings refers to the vast lands between the Blue Mountains to the west and the Misty Mountains to the east. The Shire, where the Hobbits dwell, lies near its center.

(p. 66)

Two paragraphs later, we see in The Hobbit that "the road went over an ancient stone bridge, for the river, swollen with the rains, came rushing down from the hills and mountains in the north".

This was also revised in the 1966 edition of The Hobbit, again according to Anderson:

... to bring the geography of The Hobbit more in line with that in The Lord of the Rings, and specifically to introduce the "ancient stone bridge," called "the Last Bridge" or "the Bridge of Mitheithel" in The Fellowship of the Ring. It was a three-arched bridge, the easternmost on the Road, crossing over the River Hoarwell, which the Elves call Mitheithel (Sindarin "grey-spring").

(p. 67).

I hope this will help you in your search, Desi!

[Desi Baggins]

Thanx Hilary, I did find out Lone-lands was another name for Eriador.

In my studies the only castle type thing I have read about is the Tower of Amon Sûl, but that was destroyed in 1409 and Bilbo pasted near there in 2941. I guess Tolkien should have revised this 'On some of them were old castles with and evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people' To say "On some of them were old broken down castles..."

[Greenleaf]

From what I remeber, in LotR there were a lot of ancient fortification ruins all over the Weather Hills. I suppose these were castles of the old kingdom of Arnor. And maybe we can assume that "old castles" and "old broken down castles" is quite the same. In my country at least, we always refer to the medieval castles as "old castles", even if they lie in ruins.

[Desi Baggins]

I guess that is true.........I just pictured castles still standing tall............ ;D

[Andorinha]

Desi:

If you direct your attention to Appendix A of LotR, part iii, it discusses the history of the North-kingdom, Arnor, and includes a slightly more precise definition of Eriador than that offered by D. Anderson. This section also details the collapse of Arnor into three warring states, Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan. The main line, or legitimate line of Elendil, continued in Arthedain, and seems to have remained relatively "pure" and faithful to the traditions of Numenor, while the cadet houses in Cardolan and Rhudaur fell into Evil, and fought one another for control of the Weather Hills. The main prize here was the ancient Tower of Amon Sul where the chief palantir of the north was kept.

In Rhudaur, the Dunedain seem to have been supplanted altogether by an Evil "hillman" who allied himself with the Witch King of Angmar, while Cardolan returned to its alliance with Arthedain. The war was continued, in an intensified manner, along the lines of the Weather Hills. I presume that the comment "There were castles on some of the hills, and many looked as if they had not been built for any good purpose" would refer to those castles built by Angmar and Rhudaur. (Hobbit, "Roast Mutton, p. 43 pb).

Interesting enough, this passage from the 1965 paperback edition, is significantly different from the quote you provide, Desi. The text in this edition starts just after the sentence "These didn't come quite as often as Bilbo would have would have liked them, but still he began to feel that adventures were not so bad after all" (p. 42, 1965)

It then continues:

"Things went on like this for quite a long while. There was a good deal of wide respectable country to pass through, inhabited by decent respectable folk, men or hobbits or elves or what not, with good roads, an inn or two, and every now and then a dwarf, or a tinker, or a farmer ambling by on business. But after a time they came to places where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before. Inns were rare and not good, the roads were worse, and there were hills in the distance rising higher and higher. There were castles on some of the hills, and many looked as if they had not been built for any good purpose. Also the weather which had often been as good as May can be, even in tales and legends, took a nasty turn." (1965 version, pp 42 - 43)

After this the text remains the same in both the 1965 (paperback) and 1966 (hardback) versions.

There is no mention of the "Lone Lands" at all in the earlier version; no mention of the castles as being "old" and having an "evil look;" and no direct statement that they had been made "by wicked people."

Hilary, does D. Anderson, in the annotated Hobbit, give any reason for the alterations made in these passages between 1965 and 1966? They seem "substantially" the same to my eyes. I know you remark that Anderson gives a reason for the changes made about the placement of the bridge, but does he give a reason for Tolkien's altering the earlier descriptive passage concerning the castles?

RE: Desi's "I just pictured castles still standing tall."

At any rate, Desi, if you were remembering the 1965 version, you could easily assume that the castles Bilbo saw were not mere ruins, one might even assume they were still inhabited! I think it is not until Frodo passes through the same area that we really get the explicit statement that these were ruins. "Along the crest of the ridge the hobbits could see what looked to be the remains of green-grown walls and d**es, and in the clefts there still stood the ruins of old works of stone." (FotR, "Knife in the Dark", p. 201, Omnibus ed).

Hmmm, I see the "net nanny" is still busy, it seems to regard a "d i k e," an embankment of earth, as a dirty word - sigh. People who live in the Netherlands must have real trouble in this regard...

[Desi Baggins]

Andorinha, thank you for all that info! Now I know that Bilbo must have been seeing buildings made by the people of Rhudaur.

[Stormrider]

OK....I changed some of the censored words so hopefully things like "dike" will not be replaced with other definitions or **'s. Some of the words in the censored list, I did decide to keep as censorable because they were doozies!

Andorinha: I think I need to read through that Appendix and delve into the old kingdom or Arnor again. There is some good information in there that I could stand to soak up on a bit more. It is all that background information that can fill in alot of gaps! When Annie and I did the ROTK study, we only touched on the information there and we probably should have gone into it more! Perhaps a middle-earth "history" study might be interesting to contemplate!