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Post by Sparrow on Jul 19, 2004 21:01:08 GMT -6
A few paragraphs after the goblins' song, the text reads, "But they [goblins] had a special grudge against Thorin's people, because of the war which you have heard mentioned, but which does not come into this tale. . ." What war is the narrator referencing? Where is it described? Does this passage suggest anything about the origin of racism in Middle Earth? In our Earth?
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Post by Androga Erindalant on Jul 23, 2004 5:10:03 GMT -6
The war most likely reffered to is the war in Moria, in which the goblins had taken over the Dwarf-city of Khazad-dûm. I should reread the appendices for more details on that lol. But all over Dwarves and Orcs have fought each other, even during the First Age (Silmarillion).
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Post by Hilary on Jul 23, 2004 12:13:07 GMT -6
Encyclopedia of Arda has this to say about the War of the Dwarves and Orcs: www.glyphweb.com/arda/Orgulas is right: there is more material regarding this in Appendix A, Part III Durin's Folk of Lord of the Rings, if anyone is interested in further reading
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jul 28, 2004 12:52:28 GMT -6
If I recall correctly it is because of this war that Thorin got the name Oakenshield. His sheild was broken so he picked up a piece of oak and continued fighting...
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 2, 2012 6:48:45 GMT -6
I'm not so sure it was racism that caused the confilct between Orcs and Dwarves. Orcs were driven by Melkor/Morgoth to do his evil deeds. They were bred to be a pain in all good peoples' of Arda's tushes! It is the nature of Orcs to be menacing and attack others. So the Dwarves were just defending themselves and their home. Who could blame them?
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 5, 2012 4:55:49 GMT -6
Yeah I agree with Stormrider, I don't see a necessary connection with racism here. Apparently, some dwarves got along well enough with the goblins, so it does not seem like a race-hate thing: "They [the goblins] did not hate dwarves especially ... in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them..." (The Hobbit, Chpt. 4, Over Hill and Under Hill, p. 59) But, the narrator adds, the goblins "had a special grudge against Thorin's people, because of the war which you have heard mentioned..." (Ibid, p. 59)
I agree with Androga that this "war" refers most directly to the Third Age Moria war against Azog, but the enmity of Durin's House and these goblins went back even further -- to at least the fall of Gundabad (the original home and perhaps wakening place of this Dwarvish House). So, there is a long standing enmity between the dwarves of Durin's House (Longbeards) and the goblins of the Grey Mountains and Wilderland, going back to the fall of Gundabad. I'll have to see if JRRT ever set a date for the goblin conquest of Gundabad, but I have a vague recollection it was actually quite early in the First Age. If so, we would have another link with The Silmarillion material here?
So the Battle of Five Armies was just the latest in a long series of conflicts between the House of Durin and the goblins of the Wilderland, not necessarily a goblin vrs dwarf, race war -- just a special, long held grudge match between the ancestral folk of Thorin and those of Azog/ Bolg going back nearly to the root beginnings of Middle-earth.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 5, 2012 6:12:07 GMT -6
Yeah I agree with Stormrider, I don't see a necessary connection with racism here. Apparently, some dwarves got along well enough with the goblins, so it does not seem like a race-hate thing: "They [the goblins] did not hate dwarves especially ... in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them..." (The Hobbit, Chpt. 4, Over Hill and Under Hill, p. 59) But, the narrator adds, the goblins "had a special grudge against Thorin's people, because of the war which you have heard mentioned..." (Ibid, p. 59) I forgot about this alliance! I do remember reading that in the chapter. That kind of bothered me, but there are wicked people in any and all races so it shouldn't really have been that unbelieveable for me. I agree with Androga that this "war" refers most directly to the Third Age Moria war against Azog, but the enmity of Durin's House and these goblins went back even further -- to at least the fall of Gundabad (the original home and perhaps wakening place of this Dwarvish House). So, there is a long standing enmity between the dwarves of Durin's House (Longbeards) and the goblins of the Grey Mountains and Wilderland, going back to the fall of Gundabad. I'll have to see if JRRT ever set a date for the goblin conquest of Gundabad, but I have a vague recollection it was actually quite early in the First Age. If so, we would have another link with The Silmarillion material here? So has this Silmarillion reference been there all along or added later to tie things up? I didn't see any sidebar comments in my Annotated Hobbit about this as far as timing, so I assume it was always written this way from the start.
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