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Post by Sparrow on Aug 22, 2004 22:57:29 GMT -6
This chapter closes with Bilbo's dream of being home and wandering in his sleep into the different rooms of his house "looking for something that he could not find nor remember what it looked like." What could this dream mean? Does it look forward, or backward? What could be the thing that Bilbo can neither "find nor remember?" Those of you who have read LotR, how does this dream compare to the role of dreams in the trilogy?
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Post by Desi Baggins on Sept 6, 2004 18:48:08 GMT -6
According to my encyclopedia of dreams LOOKING means: Advancement in life.
I think Bilbo is dreaming of his future and where it will advance to...
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 13, 2004 0:14:26 GMT -6
Dreams... Another very good topic, Sparrow!
Desi: I like the way you "reference" your statement to a particular compendium of dream lore, your "encyclopaedia of dreams." One of the most important elements in dream analysis is to know who is having the dream, and, perhaps even more important, just what culture they belong to. Apparently, a Japanese person's dream of the ocean, might be interpreted (in that culture) as a premonition of sudden wealth on the way. But, a dream of the ocean in the Victorian English "poetic" context was often interpreted as a premonition of impending death, or some other equally profound change.
In this case, with some diligent research, we might be able to find out just what "code-book" of dreams Tolkien used himself, and then I suppose we would be justified in assuming that his personal "dream-code" was used in his fictional works. Tolkien would have been exposed to the 19th century Romantic literatures and their codes, he would also have been exposed to the 1890 - 1920 work on dream analysis by such greats as Jung and Freud, and he would have been exposed to the "tribal" saga patterns of dream-meaning found in the Graeco-Roman Classics and the Nordic Sagas.
Just speculating here, but this particular dream that Bilbo has, seems to be a sort of "modern" thing, a psychological thing that might be more properly analyzed by a Freudian trained shrink than a prophetic-saga type of dream. For one thing, this is a "personal" dream, it gives no information about actual events that will happen in the future, nor is it a sort of "message from the gods" kind of dream telling Bilbo to go forth and do something (Biblical command dream?). It is just Bilbo, in his own house, looking for "something" that he cannot find.
In a sort of Freudian scheme, I am wondering if he is wandering through his old familiar home looking for his old familiar self? Of course by now in his journey, Bilbo has already become something unfamiliar to himself, he has changed too much to ever be the "plain, old, respectable Mr. Baggins" that he once was. He cannot even quite remember just who that old self was.
In this sort of interpretation, Sparrow, I do not think the dream looks either backward, or forward so much as it looks inward. I think it marks Bilbo's (subconscious?) attempt to come to terms with the radical alterations his projected personality is going through. Maybe, one aspect of Bilbo (the staid-stolid-secure-ignorant Shire hobbit) is dying, while a new aspect (Bilbo as Elf Friend, globe traveler, a person connected to the wider world) is just being born.
Desi: I suppose we could, from a readers' standpoint, call this an "Advancement in life" indeed! Bilbo is becoming a much BIGGER person than he ever was!
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Post by Greenleaf on Sept 13, 2004 4:56:56 GMT -6
Andorinha, I like your analysis of Bilbo's dream, that it is actually an inward-looking dream. I think it gives a very good insight to the personality alteration Bilbo is going through.
I wonder, could we perhaps sort Bombur's dream of the woodland king and the forest feast to the category of the prophetic-saga type of dreams? (According to those categories you defined above?)
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 13, 2004 6:45:50 GMT -6
Very interesting analysis, Andorinha and Desi! I think you have hit the nail on the head! In a way, it is sad that Bilbo cannot find or remember what he is looking for (his old self) because the new self is emerging. But even though Bilbo is becoming more adept, worldly, and self dependant does not mean that he can't have some of his old self when he wants that comfortable feeling.
I imagine people have been curious about dreams since the dawning of time. There probably were shamans and holy men/women who also had interpretations for dreams, too.
I wonder how far back documentation goes on early dream analysis. It would be interesting to see how different cultures, ages, and religious influences varied in each code book for the different ages.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Sept 13, 2004 18:38:58 GMT -6
Andorinha, Great analysis! I did not know that different cultures had different ways to interpret!
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 17, 2012 6:32:07 GMT -6
When I first read Sparrow's intro question, I thought Bilbo was searching for his old self because he had changed so much. Then I went and read down the list of comments and it looks like we all seem to agree. Once again, Andorinha has done a great job of explaining dream interpretation world wide! In answer to my last question about how far back in history dream interpretation goes, here is a link from Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_interpretationOne of the earliest written examples of dream interpretation comes from the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, an epic poem from Mesopotamia. It is amongst the earliest surviving works of literature. Gilgamesh has a dream about an axe falling from the sky. The ancient Egyptians have hierolgliphics that depict dreams and have been interpreted by Egyptian priests. The ancient greeks built temples where they sent sick people to be cured by incubating dreams inside the temples. In medieval Islam,
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 17, 2012 15:44:45 GMT -6
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 17, 2012 23:22:23 GMT -6
it seems every time there is a new dig in the Mesopotamian heartland of today's Iraq, someone finds a new bit of a clay tablet with a fragment of the Epic of Gilgamesh that drives the date of composition further into the past. I have not kept up with this material, my last serious acquaintance with it being about 1986, but, back then, the oldest actual tablet of the Gilgamesh tale was a Sumerian language text dated to about 2000 B.C. In a Sumerian King List (also from a copy written in 2000 B.C.) we have mention of Gilgamesh as having lived and ruled in the city state of Uruk at about 2750 B.C. -- so the date of 3150 B.C. is demonstrably off. The Gilgamesh tale is done up in a highly polished style of composition in the 2000 B.C. fragments, so it was probably first laid out a good while earlier. By 2000, the actual historical Gilgamesh (if there truly was one!) had been mythologized quite a bit, so the 2/3rds god figure we see in the epic poem represents a long tradition of poetic accretion/ invention. Most of the modern translations are based on fairly late Old Babylonian and even later Assyrian compilations written down between 1700 and 700 B.C. Col Waddell's book is now considered an amusing, but wildly incorrect interpretation. The Aryan-Vedic connection with Sumer has long ago been abandoned. But the Greeks may have taken some of their Hercules concept from their acquaintance with the Assyrians' Gilgamesh around 700 B.C., even some of the Odyssey seems based on borrowings from the later versions of Gilgamesh. A more up-to-date discussion, in a cheap paperback format, partially readable online is: www.amazon.com/The-Epic-Gilgamesh-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140449191/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345266973&sr=8-1&keywords=Gilgamesh+epic____________________________ Some Sumerologist recently have made the claim that three separate texts from the Early Dynasty IIIa period (starting around 2600 B.C.) have potential connections with the Gilgamesh mythos. In one, Lugalbanda and Ninsun are named, in later texts they are identified as the parents of Gilgamesh, but, unfortunately, this fragment does not go on to actually name Gilgamesh himself. If this material proves out, it would give us a tentative date of 2750 for the historic figure Gilgamesh, with the first writing about him (or at least about his supposed parents) coming 150 years later. See page 5 in A.R. George listed below: books.google.com/books?id=21xxZ_gUy_wC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=Sumerian+version+Gilgamesh+epic&source=bl&ots=_NvBHC5G5x&sig=VdYZiwE7cgfqHVnlDsjWZqofZiY&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Sumerian%20version%20Gilgamesh%20epic&f=false
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Aug 18, 2012 12:32:27 GMT -6
My interpretation of Bilbo's dream is that he was searching for his home without realizing that home as he knew it was now gone. It's the classic "You can't go home again" scenario.
Bilbo eventually returns to Bag End but as we see in LOTR, he's never quite comfortable there. The Shire feels so small and quaint after he's see the wider world. Bilbo may have gotten back to his house at the end of the story but it no longer felt like home. This is what he couldn't find in the dream. All his rooms and possessions were around him but it was the concept of "home" that was missing from them.
I think what Bilbo was experiencing is similar to what everyone feels when they visit the house they grew up in. Assuming one's parents still live there, everything is there and looks the same but the overall feel of the place is different. You've moved on in your life and the concept of "home" is something you never quite get back until you make a new one for yourself.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 18, 2012 13:05:22 GMT -6
Fredeghar: That is another good intrepretation. My old home after I was married didn't seem to fit me the same either. I guess both interpretations could have merit--finding ones self and finding ones old home--and all because the person has grown and expanded themself once off on his/her own.
I think it would be even stranger going back home after someone else bought the old home and seen what they had done with it! Think of what Bilbo would have thought if the Sacksville-Baggins had actually inherited it (due to Bilbo's lengthy time gone) and moved in and redecorated or remodeled. And it would have if he hadn't gotten home in time!
Andorinha: As far as ancient dream interpreting goes, it appears from the dream interpretation sequences in the Gilgamesh epic, that this practice was very ancient dating at least a few thousand years Before Christ. People always seem to have had dreams. It is no surprise they would be curious about their dreams and wonder why they were dreaming of things they wouldn't normally do, see, or hear of while awake. Not surprising shamans and other wise or medical men night give interpeting them a whirl.
I wonder if Cave Men wrote dream interpretations on their cave walls. But those may be difficult to figure out as a dream interpretation since their drawings were of animals, hunting, and (I suppose) ceremonial scenes. They did not have any symbols or letters as the Egyptians did to my knowledge anyway.
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 19, 2012 9:30:21 GMT -6
RE: "You can't go home again" hmm, is that because home has actually changed, or the returnee's perception has changed? In Bilbo's case, I'd stress his changes. I think JRRT meant the Shire to remain fairly stable, especially for The Hobbit, but, even it alters in reaction to Bilbo's new status as world-traveler, he can no longer play the same old roles of "respectability." But, I got the feeling, in Bilbo's case, that he did not try too hard to slip back into his old ways... Of course, in LOTR, the Shire reveals its own different faces, as in The Scouring of the Shire? ________________ I like Stormrider's take on this, last message (#223) at: tolkiensring.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Hobbit&action=display&thread=1267&page=15
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