Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 11:28:45 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Quest For Meaning
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Message 1 of 8 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/2/2002 10:38 PM
Ok guys and girls her is your chance to help me make words meet thoughts on my key lines of the poem. I feel this is the most important portion of the entire poem yet I can't quite put into words why. Please read and interpret in your own words it would be greatly appreciated.
"Old Tom Bombadil lay upon his pillow
Sweeter than Goldberry, quieter than the Willow,
snugger than the Badger-folk and Barrow-dwellers:
slept lik a humming top, snored like a bellows.
I really think this contains the essence of the difference between Tom and everything else, however I need the words to express it. Also feel free to tell me I'm wrong and another stanza is more important and why you think so just like you always wanted to tell your English teacher because I always interpreted poems differently than they did.
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Message 2 of 8 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:49 AM
This verse has been haunting me as well, as I try to connect it to other things in the poem. This is what I have so far but I'm only on the edge of understanding this. Everyone tries to "catch" Tom starting with Goldberry who pulls him into the River by his beard, followed by Old Man Willow who snares him by his own song, the Badgers who drag him into their hole, and finally the Barrow-wight who lies in waiting in Tom's house. ( I'm beginning to see this whimsical activity as a kind of game that Tom always wins.) In each case Tom commands them all to let him go and then, "Go back to sleep again." What does Tom mean by "sleep"? As he lies snug in his bed that night, he thinks about all those things he "played with" and sent into "sleep". Upon waking, we first hear him whistling like a starling and sing, "Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling." Who else could "darling" be than Goldberry? And a few days later he "catches" Goldberry singing water songs to the birds and makes her his wife. We are told here and elsewhere that nothing can catch Tom Bombadil, not even Goldberry but she sure does capture his heart. I think this verse is Tom's first awareness of Love for another being that he wants for his very own. Is anyone else thinking along these lines? I would love to hear other interpretations.
Annie, who is still mulling...
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Message 3 of 8 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:00 PM
This is a great stanza to consider for meaning. In refering to "sleep" I think one must consider the whole of Bombadils nature, unfettered, unworried, seemingly unaware of his surroundings, or asleep if you will. He commands his attackers to sleep, only when they do somthing outside their natures. Meaning they have shown more awarness then is good for them by trying to trap him, and they should return to their normal passive lifes and consider him a part of their world to be accepted. The command "sleep" is meant literally I suspect, but more on the lines of "this doesn't concern you, and focus on what does."
Though "no one ever caught him" does seem to become a error when you consider Goldberry's capturing of Tom's heart. Good eye Annie! Now I have to mull as well!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 4 of 8 in Discussion From: waldakingofrohan
Sent: 8/6/2002 7:26 AM
This is soooo exciting!! That you Rivers and you Anniel T. have a vibrating connection to this passage! I can't wait for you both to reveal its meaning to us--in your own way and in your own time!
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Message 5 of 8 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/6/2002 3:35 PM
I am trying to look at symbolism. What is his pillow? Could it be the earth? Could the willow, badger, and barrow-wights symbolize some aspects of ME? They all tried to catch him (meaning?) but once they realized him to be nature, they knew his power.
He caught Goldberry (changing seasons), or did she like Annie said capture his heart? Four things tried to capture him, but finding it hard to somehow relate them to maybe the four elements.
Still musing also,
Glor
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Message 6 of 8 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:11 PM
Greetings Walda:
I'm still wondering about "sleep". Iarwain is interpreting this perhaps as "This doesn't concern you, and focus on what does". As I ponder this, I am inclined to lean his way. Would this apply to Goldberry as well do you think?
Rivers, do you have the words yet to express the differences between Tom and the others? And how it applies to this verse? . Walda and I both would really like to know.
As I read through Glor's comments on elements above, I started thinking back to Iarwain's image of Tom as Father and references made by others about nature. A beautiful image of Tom began to emerge as "Father Earth". Thank you, Glor, for putting that extra little ingredient in there.
Annie
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Message 7 of 8 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/6/2002 11:25 PM
I like Iarwains ideas on sleeping as this doesn't concern you in regards to sleep. I think perhaps it is more of a your free will is great and I will allow you to go completely about your business as long as it doesn't infringe upon my free will . A sort of check on the might makes right theory. In essence Tom has an understanding of the nature of everything and can do it all a little better than the actual characters themselves. And as for his sleeping like a humming-top I take this to be uninterrupted sleep as he has no fear and since he doesn't actually harm anything he has no regrets either. A happy go lucky existence with no fear or regret who wouldn't sleep well.
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Recommend Message 8 of 8 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/8/2002 7:47 AM
Ok, I'll take a stab at this. Old Man Willow, taking Tom inside himself, into his roots, into the earth. Sort of a womb and death image. Think of how powerful roots are, they pulverize rock. Just very slowly, but trees obviously live on a different time scale than we do.
Again the badger is holding Tom (or trying to) under the earth, and the barrow wight says "under earth I'll take you." For symbolism these are all earth-related, and Goldberry is water-related. On another message I said I interpret Tom as representing Life energy. I take this poem to be about life versus death, and that Tom, as eldest, is eldest because he can defy death. He can control death and keep it at bay through his singing. He can send death back to sleep.
Goldberry is the exception, and did she intend his death by drowning? Did she intend his death at all, or merely to capture him because she loved him? I think having an exception, rather than complete consistency, is one of the charms of the poem.
Zauber
___________________
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Message 1 of 8 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/2/2002 10:38 PM
Ok guys and girls her is your chance to help me make words meet thoughts on my key lines of the poem. I feel this is the most important portion of the entire poem yet I can't quite put into words why. Please read and interpret in your own words it would be greatly appreciated.
"Old Tom Bombadil lay upon his pillow
Sweeter than Goldberry, quieter than the Willow,
snugger than the Badger-folk and Barrow-dwellers:
slept lik a humming top, snored like a bellows.
I really think this contains the essence of the difference between Tom and everything else, however I need the words to express it. Also feel free to tell me I'm wrong and another stanza is more important and why you think so just like you always wanted to tell your English teacher because I always interpreted poems differently than they did.
_______________________
Reply
Message 2 of 8 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:49 AM
This verse has been haunting me as well, as I try to connect it to other things in the poem. This is what I have so far but I'm only on the edge of understanding this. Everyone tries to "catch" Tom starting with Goldberry who pulls him into the River by his beard, followed by Old Man Willow who snares him by his own song, the Badgers who drag him into their hole, and finally the Barrow-wight who lies in waiting in Tom's house. ( I'm beginning to see this whimsical activity as a kind of game that Tom always wins.) In each case Tom commands them all to let him go and then, "Go back to sleep again." What does Tom mean by "sleep"? As he lies snug in his bed that night, he thinks about all those things he "played with" and sent into "sleep". Upon waking, we first hear him whistling like a starling and sing, "Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling." Who else could "darling" be than Goldberry? And a few days later he "catches" Goldberry singing water songs to the birds and makes her his wife. We are told here and elsewhere that nothing can catch Tom Bombadil, not even Goldberry but she sure does capture his heart. I think this verse is Tom's first awareness of Love for another being that he wants for his very own. Is anyone else thinking along these lines? I would love to hear other interpretations.
Annie, who is still mulling...
_________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 8 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:00 PM
This is a great stanza to consider for meaning. In refering to "sleep" I think one must consider the whole of Bombadils nature, unfettered, unworried, seemingly unaware of his surroundings, or asleep if you will. He commands his attackers to sleep, only when they do somthing outside their natures. Meaning they have shown more awarness then is good for them by trying to trap him, and they should return to their normal passive lifes and consider him a part of their world to be accepted. The command "sleep" is meant literally I suspect, but more on the lines of "this doesn't concern you, and focus on what does."
Though "no one ever caught him" does seem to become a error when you consider Goldberry's capturing of Tom's heart. Good eye Annie! Now I have to mull as well!
Namárië,
Iarwain
__________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 8 in Discussion From: waldakingofrohan
Sent: 8/6/2002 7:26 AM
This is soooo exciting!! That you Rivers and you Anniel T. have a vibrating connection to this passage! I can't wait for you both to reveal its meaning to us--in your own way and in your own time!
__________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 8 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/6/2002 3:35 PM
I am trying to look at symbolism. What is his pillow? Could it be the earth? Could the willow, badger, and barrow-wights symbolize some aspects of ME? They all tried to catch him (meaning?) but once they realized him to be nature, they knew his power.
He caught Goldberry (changing seasons), or did she like Annie said capture his heart? Four things tried to capture him, but finding it hard to somehow relate them to maybe the four elements.
Still musing also,
Glor
__________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 8 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:11 PM
Greetings Walda:
I'm still wondering about "sleep". Iarwain is interpreting this perhaps as "This doesn't concern you, and focus on what does". As I ponder this, I am inclined to lean his way. Would this apply to Goldberry as well do you think?
Rivers, do you have the words yet to express the differences between Tom and the others? And how it applies to this verse? . Walda and I both would really like to know.
As I read through Glor's comments on elements above, I started thinking back to Iarwain's image of Tom as Father and references made by others about nature. A beautiful image of Tom began to emerge as "Father Earth". Thank you, Glor, for putting that extra little ingredient in there.
Annie
__________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 8 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/6/2002 11:25 PM
I like Iarwains ideas on sleeping as this doesn't concern you in regards to sleep. I think perhaps it is more of a your free will is great and I will allow you to go completely about your business as long as it doesn't infringe upon my free will . A sort of check on the might makes right theory. In essence Tom has an understanding of the nature of everything and can do it all a little better than the actual characters themselves. And as for his sleeping like a humming-top I take this to be uninterrupted sleep as he has no fear and since he doesn't actually harm anything he has no regrets either. A happy go lucky existence with no fear or regret who wouldn't sleep well.
____________________________
Reply
Recommend Message 8 of 8 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/8/2002 7:47 AM
Ok, I'll take a stab at this. Old Man Willow, taking Tom inside himself, into his roots, into the earth. Sort of a womb and death image. Think of how powerful roots are, they pulverize rock. Just very slowly, but trees obviously live on a different time scale than we do.
Again the badger is holding Tom (or trying to) under the earth, and the barrow wight says "under earth I'll take you." For symbolism these are all earth-related, and Goldberry is water-related. On another message I said I interpret Tom as representing Life energy. I take this poem to be about life versus death, and that Tom, as eldest, is eldest because he can defy death. He can control death and keep it at bay through his singing. He can send death back to sleep.
Goldberry is the exception, and did she intend his death by drowning? Did she intend his death at all, or merely to capture him because she loved him? I think having an exception, rather than complete consistency, is one of the charms of the poem.
Zauber