Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 12:15:46 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE : The Adventures of T.B.
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Message 1 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/2/2002 3:28 AM
I'm really excited by the response and insight into how we all feel about Tom, as well as Goldberry and I hope there will be more comments to follow those threads. I however would also like to try and focus upon each verse if possible and see if we can identify any key ideals or literary marks that Tolkien may have left for us. So many times I am asked why I bother to study his tales. His language is my major motivation, but in researching words I have been given a glimpse of this wonderful man.
So if you are keeping up with the threads your aware I think of Tom's song being akin to bird song, and I see the character, (and I am amending this) as Tolkiens "Id". Making Bilbo the self, and Gandalf the super ego. My apologies for previous assumptions but as I considered his poems and why they where written I began to see this as his "who am I to write this Tale?" or unsure child phase of his Trilogy. So aside from his Trilogy I would like to hear some opinions regarding this poem. Granted it is of course laced with ridculous words and nonsense phrases. If you recall however from the preface Hobbits seem to delight in this verse. (Remember we are reading a translated Hobbit born poem, not a historical document)
1.So with this in mind, whom do you think is the author of this poem, Bilbo, Sam, or Frodo?
2.When do you think this poem occurs in relation to TFotR, in other words does "Adventures" occur before or after the tale of the Ring Bearer?
3.What evidence do you have to support your position regarding when "Adventures" occurs in relation to TFotR?
4.What differences do you notice between the Tom of Adventures, and the Tom in the Trilogy?
5. What do you think of the preface, elaborate writting trick, tedious tripe rehashed from earlier tales, or ?
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 2 of 11 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/2/2002 7:19 AM
In the preface, Tolkien surmises the author of the Tom B. Poems to have been a Bucklander. So could the author possibly have been Merry?
I would say the poem was written after LOTR because in the first poem Tom wears a swan's wing in his hat. In the second poem he gets the blue feather from the King's fisher, and he wears the blue feather in LOTR.
I guess the difference between Tom in the Adventures and in LOTR is we don't get a true sense of Tom's depth, his age and importance in the scheme of Middle Earth, from the poems.
I personally love the preface, and enjoy Tolkien's stance of being an editor or translator for many of his books. (LOTR, Farmer Giles, Adventures of Tom B. comee to mind). I think it gives Tolkien a great opportunity to poke fun at other philologists, translators and editors, as well as poke some fun at himself. As a 'serious scholar', Tolkien did edit and write prefaces to Sir Garwain, Beowulf, The Ancrene Wisse, Pearl, Sir Orfeo, among others. This was his 'job', translating early English documents into more modern English, and writing prefaces to explain their origins. So I think he had a ball making up the 'histories' and creating a satire of his own more 'serious' works.
Zauber
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Message 3 of 11 in Discussion From: Selmo
Sent: 8/2/2002 9:22 AM
I agree that the author of the poem is likely to have been a Bucklander, or someone from just over the river in The Marish. In LoTR, Tom hints at contact with Farmer Maggot so perhaps the hobbits of that part of The Shire knew of him and had a fund of stories that the author set as a poem.
However, Merry doesn't say anything about this when he meets Tom, so perhaps he was unknown in The Shire until the hobbits of the Fellowship return with their stories. In that case, the author could be Merry. Frodo's style was much too serious and this poem doesn't sound like any of Sam's. As it doesn't mention drinking, it couldent be Pippin's.
Selmo
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Message 4 of 11 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/2/2002 9:49 AM
Hi Selmo, read the second poem, Bombadil Goes Boating, for more information regarding Tom's contact with Famer Maggot. Sounds like they are old drinking buddies.
I liked the way you arrived at Merry as the Bombadil poems' author; I enjoyed your deductive reasoning!
Zauber
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Message 5 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/2/2002 11:37 AM
Iarwin, great line of questioning if I can pat a partner on the back. I can only think that perhaps Bilbo would have had the knowledge from possibly the elves to hve come up with the info on Tom but it states it was a Bucklander which leaves him out so I will agree with the Merry hypothesis because it doesn't sound like Sam and Frodo never went near Farmer Maggot. However Sam did have an inside track after marrying Rosie so its possible he wrote it. It seems obvious to me that AoTB was written before LoTR because he is already married to Goldberry in the LoTR and in the AoTB he has to get her so its impossible for LoTR to have been written first. To go off tangent for a moment I believe he had to get the water-lilies for Goldberry to survive out of water I don't know why but it seems to make sense to me.
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Message 6 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/2/2002 9:42 PM
Of course AoTB was written well before LotR. But it is amazing how Tolkien took, both the nonsense ryhmes of TB and the child play of The Hobbit, and gave it such depth and beauty in LotR. It is acknowledgement of Tolkien's greatness, that even when he made stories for his children's bedtime, that they were rooted in the phenomenal imagination and thought processes that were to become the basis of his greatest works.
TB was, like our Iarwain said, a father figure. It is how you explain to children about great ideals and thoughts they are too young to understand. Even the Bible is dressed in parable and allegory. Some things are so complex and esoteric in nature, that the only way to explain them is through simple child-like connection. The fact that Tolkien hinted at, but did not explain the importance of TB, leads me to believe he could not think of a way to do it. It reminds me of my favorite quote: "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; For those who do not, no explanation will suffice".
All HAIL TOLKIEN!!!
Glor
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Message 7 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/3/2002 8:36 AM
Rivers:
I have been giving Goldberry much more thought as I read thru this poem, especially her origins and who her mother was. You made a good point about the water lilies. Interesting observation. It makes sense to me. Or could Tom be bringing her water lilies so she doesn't get too homesick and decide to go back home?
Annie
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Message 8 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:17 PM
I think Merry an apt canidate for author except for a few details to consider. The preface doesn't mention either Merry or Pippin as potential authors. I believe the appendices credits Merry with Herb Lore of the Shire, but gives no other writting credits to him. We must also remember that Frodo was Buckland born and raised and had at one time raided Farmer Maggots crops. You recall his fear of the Farmers dogs? So although the style is indeed too light for his own composition, I'm inclined to credit the authorship to Frodo as a piece of Bucklandic history he wanted to preserve.
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 9 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/4/2002 7:29 PM
Rivers:
I have been thinking about Goldberry since I read the Adv. of Tom Bombadil.....your comment: "To go off tangent for a moment I believe he had to get the water-lilies for Goldberry to survive out of water I don't know why but it seems to make sense to me." has also made me aware of the thought that keeps running through my mind when I read about her in the poem. I keep getting the feeling that she is a mermaid! Her dress is silver green, in FOTR Tom brings her water lillies to place around her feet, the Hobbits feel spellbound by her when they first meet her (like the mermaid's siren song). So your comment about her surviving out of water with the help of the water lillies could be true of a mermaid, sort of!
However, after I read some of Glorfindle's comments under the Goldberry, topic I think Glor may be on the right track. Glor's comments really do make a lot of sense when you think about them. Goldberry is Time and Tom is Nature. Way to go, Glor!
Stormrider
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Message 10 of 11 in Discussion
Sent: 8/5/2002 8:20 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 11 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 7:37 AM
My two cents are as follows:
1. I don't think any of our young admirable Hobbits wrote this verse. I rather believe that some native Bucklander who does not enter into LOTR wrote this piece. Tolkien alludes to the fact that the Bucklanders probably coined Bombadil's name at some period in time before the War of the Ring. Poetry and verse were part of the Hobbit culture and the author need not have been specifically mentioned. Tolkien's world is a living and breathing entity behind the scenes ... I think he was attempting to exhibit this fact by leaving the author anonymous.
2. I agree with everyone else ... about the courtship of Goldberry and Tom occurring prior to Fellowship. Possibly the rest of the poem preceded it as well ... but not necessarily. One gets the sense that each little "Adventure" mentioned takes place as Tom is walking home. But, of course, this is not specifically stated.
3. See Above
4. I think the Tom of Verse and the Tom of Prose are very similar. I imagine that if I were to read this poem without knowing it was Bombadil, I would imagine Bombadil - both from his appearance and mannerisms.
5. I love the way that Tolkien writes as "translator". Half the fun of his writings are to get a sense of "reality". This is the "endearing" quality of his literature to me.
One other question that we may ponder ... when was the poem written? I feel like Adv. of Tom Bombadil was written well before the events of LOTR. What do you think?
Algamesh
________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/2/2002 3:28 AM
I'm really excited by the response and insight into how we all feel about Tom, as well as Goldberry and I hope there will be more comments to follow those threads. I however would also like to try and focus upon each verse if possible and see if we can identify any key ideals or literary marks that Tolkien may have left for us. So many times I am asked why I bother to study his tales. His language is my major motivation, but in researching words I have been given a glimpse of this wonderful man.
So if you are keeping up with the threads your aware I think of Tom's song being akin to bird song, and I see the character, (and I am amending this) as Tolkiens "Id". Making Bilbo the self, and Gandalf the super ego. My apologies for previous assumptions but as I considered his poems and why they where written I began to see this as his "who am I to write this Tale?" or unsure child phase of his Trilogy. So aside from his Trilogy I would like to hear some opinions regarding this poem. Granted it is of course laced with ridculous words and nonsense phrases. If you recall however from the preface Hobbits seem to delight in this verse. (Remember we are reading a translated Hobbit born poem, not a historical document)
1.So with this in mind, whom do you think is the author of this poem, Bilbo, Sam, or Frodo?
2.When do you think this poem occurs in relation to TFotR, in other words does "Adventures" occur before or after the tale of the Ring Bearer?
3.What evidence do you have to support your position regarding when "Adventures" occurs in relation to TFotR?
4.What differences do you notice between the Tom of Adventures, and the Tom in the Trilogy?
5. What do you think of the preface, elaborate writting trick, tedious tripe rehashed from earlier tales, or ?
Namárië,
Iarwain
____________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 11 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/2/2002 7:19 AM
In the preface, Tolkien surmises the author of the Tom B. Poems to have been a Bucklander. So could the author possibly have been Merry?
I would say the poem was written after LOTR because in the first poem Tom wears a swan's wing in his hat. In the second poem he gets the blue feather from the King's fisher, and he wears the blue feather in LOTR.
I guess the difference between Tom in the Adventures and in LOTR is we don't get a true sense of Tom's depth, his age and importance in the scheme of Middle Earth, from the poems.
I personally love the preface, and enjoy Tolkien's stance of being an editor or translator for many of his books. (LOTR, Farmer Giles, Adventures of Tom B. comee to mind). I think it gives Tolkien a great opportunity to poke fun at other philologists, translators and editors, as well as poke some fun at himself. As a 'serious scholar', Tolkien did edit and write prefaces to Sir Garwain, Beowulf, The Ancrene Wisse, Pearl, Sir Orfeo, among others. This was his 'job', translating early English documents into more modern English, and writing prefaces to explain their origins. So I think he had a ball making up the 'histories' and creating a satire of his own more 'serious' works.
Zauber
________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 11 in Discussion From: Selmo
Sent: 8/2/2002 9:22 AM
I agree that the author of the poem is likely to have been a Bucklander, or someone from just over the river in The Marish. In LoTR, Tom hints at contact with Farmer Maggot so perhaps the hobbits of that part of The Shire knew of him and had a fund of stories that the author set as a poem.
However, Merry doesn't say anything about this when he meets Tom, so perhaps he was unknown in The Shire until the hobbits of the Fellowship return with their stories. In that case, the author could be Merry. Frodo's style was much too serious and this poem doesn't sound like any of Sam's. As it doesn't mention drinking, it couldent be Pippin's.
Selmo
_________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 11 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/2/2002 9:49 AM
Hi Selmo, read the second poem, Bombadil Goes Boating, for more information regarding Tom's contact with Famer Maggot. Sounds like they are old drinking buddies.
I liked the way you arrived at Merry as the Bombadil poems' author; I enjoyed your deductive reasoning!
Zauber
__________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/2/2002 11:37 AM
Iarwin, great line of questioning if I can pat a partner on the back. I can only think that perhaps Bilbo would have had the knowledge from possibly the elves to hve come up with the info on Tom but it states it was a Bucklander which leaves him out so I will agree with the Merry hypothesis because it doesn't sound like Sam and Frodo never went near Farmer Maggot. However Sam did have an inside track after marrying Rosie so its possible he wrote it. It seems obvious to me that AoTB was written before LoTR because he is already married to Goldberry in the LoTR and in the AoTB he has to get her so its impossible for LoTR to have been written first. To go off tangent for a moment I believe he had to get the water-lilies for Goldberry to survive out of water I don't know why but it seems to make sense to me.
___________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/2/2002 9:42 PM
Of course AoTB was written well before LotR. But it is amazing how Tolkien took, both the nonsense ryhmes of TB and the child play of The Hobbit, and gave it such depth and beauty in LotR. It is acknowledgement of Tolkien's greatness, that even when he made stories for his children's bedtime, that they were rooted in the phenomenal imagination and thought processes that were to become the basis of his greatest works.
TB was, like our Iarwain said, a father figure. It is how you explain to children about great ideals and thoughts they are too young to understand. Even the Bible is dressed in parable and allegory. Some things are so complex and esoteric in nature, that the only way to explain them is through simple child-like connection. The fact that Tolkien hinted at, but did not explain the importance of TB, leads me to believe he could not think of a way to do it. It reminds me of my favorite quote: "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; For those who do not, no explanation will suffice".
All HAIL TOLKIEN!!!
Glor
_______________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/3/2002 8:36 AM
Rivers:
I have been giving Goldberry much more thought as I read thru this poem, especially her origins and who her mother was. You made a good point about the water lilies. Interesting observation. It makes sense to me. Or could Tom be bringing her water lilies so she doesn't get too homesick and decide to go back home?
Annie
_________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:17 PM
I think Merry an apt canidate for author except for a few details to consider. The preface doesn't mention either Merry or Pippin as potential authors. I believe the appendices credits Merry with Herb Lore of the Shire, but gives no other writting credits to him. We must also remember that Frodo was Buckland born and raised and had at one time raided Farmer Maggots crops. You recall his fear of the Farmers dogs? So although the style is indeed too light for his own composition, I'm inclined to credit the authorship to Frodo as a piece of Bucklandic history he wanted to preserve.
Namárië,
Iarwain
___________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/4/2002 7:29 PM
Rivers:
I have been thinking about Goldberry since I read the Adv. of Tom Bombadil.....your comment: "To go off tangent for a moment I believe he had to get the water-lilies for Goldberry to survive out of water I don't know why but it seems to make sense to me." has also made me aware of the thought that keeps running through my mind when I read about her in the poem. I keep getting the feeling that she is a mermaid! Her dress is silver green, in FOTR Tom brings her water lillies to place around her feet, the Hobbits feel spellbound by her when they first meet her (like the mermaid's siren song). So your comment about her surviving out of water with the help of the water lillies could be true of a mermaid, sort of!
However, after I read some of Glorfindle's comments under the Goldberry, topic I think Glor may be on the right track. Glor's comments really do make a lot of sense when you think about them. Goldberry is Time and Tom is Nature. Way to go, Glor!
Stormrider
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Reply
Message 10 of 11 in Discussion
Sent: 8/5/2002 8:20 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
____________________________
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Message 11 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 7:37 AM
My two cents are as follows:
1. I don't think any of our young admirable Hobbits wrote this verse. I rather believe that some native Bucklander who does not enter into LOTR wrote this piece. Tolkien alludes to the fact that the Bucklanders probably coined Bombadil's name at some period in time before the War of the Ring. Poetry and verse were part of the Hobbit culture and the author need not have been specifically mentioned. Tolkien's world is a living and breathing entity behind the scenes ... I think he was attempting to exhibit this fact by leaving the author anonymous.
2. I agree with everyone else ... about the courtship of Goldberry and Tom occurring prior to Fellowship. Possibly the rest of the poem preceded it as well ... but not necessarily. One gets the sense that each little "Adventure" mentioned takes place as Tom is walking home. But, of course, this is not specifically stated.
3. See Above
4. I think the Tom of Verse and the Tom of Prose are very similar. I imagine that if I were to read this poem without knowing it was Bombadil, I would imagine Bombadil - both from his appearance and mannerisms.
5. I love the way that Tolkien writes as "translator". Half the fun of his writings are to get a sense of "reality". This is the "endearing" quality of his literature to me.
One other question that we may ponder ... when was the poem written? I feel like Adv. of Tom Bombadil was written well before the events of LOTR. What do you think?
Algamesh