Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 12:22:12 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE : Nonsense or Meaning
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Message 1 of 9 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 7/31/2002 10:58 PM
Many have criticized the character of Tom Bombadil for his ritualistic singing. "Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling." Does the light hearted chant represent magic in an elemental way such as the theme of Arda or is it nonsense better left out?
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Message 2 of 9 in Discussion From: DaleAnn
Sent: 8/1/2002 4:52 AM
I've always thought that the "merry-dol" chant was a way to convey that "life" rests easily on Tom's shoulders. He's a "Don't sweat the small stuff -- and it's all small stuff" kind of guy. He is quite a confident sort...as we read in the poems and LotR. All it takes is a word and he is obeyed.
Now that you mention the "Theme of Arda" I wonder if he isn't "singing" a happier world into creation. Who knows what ME might look like if he wasn't there singing, trying to combat the evil that was overtaking it. Though I imagine the music of the Ainur to be "classical", it doesn't have to be. Why not jazz? Or Ragtime? Or Heavy Metal Rock? But, please, Eru, not Disco! Or some other forms that will remain nameless.... ----DA
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Message 3 of 9 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/1/2002 6:11 AM
I've always interpreted Tom's singing as an expression of overflowing life energy, joy at being alive, and an invitation for all other beings to join in his celebration. I find him a very meaningful and optimistic character. Had not thought of his singing as being connected to Arda. I don't think of it as 'creating', as in creating a world, but more as sustaining the goodness in this one.
Zauber
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Message 4 of 9 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/1/2002 6:23 AM
I believe that Tom's singing is a way to cheer and warm travellers he meets. It lifts their spirits and helps them relax and enjoy life. It causes people to think on the happier good side of things with the up beat tone of his songs.
Stormrider
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Message 5 of 9 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/1/2002 8:51 AM
I'm very pleased that Rivers opened this thread, it allows me to express an idea or theory I've mused with for some time regarding Tolkien's philology studies. With him being so enamoured with Nature it inspires me to take a leap and offer up my own theory which I suspect Tolkien believed as well.
I make mention in the introduction of this study regarding Bombadil's singing as akin to bird song, for example the mockingbird it will of course mimic many other birds songs about it, or sounds of it's enviorment but it's own song, which is unique to that speices, is generally sung in the early morning to assert it's domain is always repeated in threes with an unique ending note or notes at the end of third verse. Please excuse the poor onomatopoeia here:
Kia-cha! kia-cha! kia-warble cha ka-a-tee!
This is of course repeated three times and in most cases the "male" whom is singing is bounding from high point to high point of his territory to assert his domain.
Now let's try Tom:
Hey-dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillow!
And of course according to the Hobbits is repeated three or more times as Tom goes bounding from hilltop to hilltop.
Granted it is a grasp at straws and I suspect you might consider me a contestant for whose psychosis is this. But if your of a mind to delve beyond that which our vanity preaches about us. Perhaps just as the Elves awoke speech in the Ents, perhaps it was the birds that awoke speech in us. And we have since forgotten our roots?
I promise I won't get this deep anymore, perhaps I've been awake too long, who knows.
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 6 of 9 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/1/2002 9:20 AM
Get as deep as your like, dear friend. All these different ideas expand our knoweldge and insight, and that is a very good thing.
I suddenly saw Tom going through his woods, bounding along singing, and in effect saying "This is Tom's place! This is Tom's place!", and that would invite and comfort travellers, as Storm mentioned, and also serve as a warning to any stray barrow-wights or unredeemed Orcs that they'd best be on best behavior. A beneficial and protective territorial melody.
Zauber
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Message 7 of 9 in Discussion From: Mirdain
Sent: 8/1/2002 9:39 PM
Good evening!
I must agree that Tom Bombadil's singing may be an expression of singing life into the plants and beasts that surround him, or around the whole of Middle Earth. His song, and words, although seeming simplistic at first blush, are ritualistic and there is the assumption (at least for my interpretation) that he would sing the same verses, with new threads of thought, each and every sunrise or sunset. He may be a guardian, or represents an entity that is necessary for the balance and growth of nature.
Tom Bombadil seemed to me to be the one who was outside of the more natural characters in the story, if you could call wizards and hobbits that...and Tom seemed to represent an otherworldly element that was concerned with the plight, but like the gods of the Greeks and Celts, they did not necessarily get involved in it, unless of course they took a great liking to the one in need. Hence, Frodo & companions being saved in the Barrow.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Namarie
Mirdain
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Message 8 of 9 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/5/2002 9:25 PM
I see Tom's nonsense as ancient nonsense with a purpose: Tom sings English folk music. His 'hey dol, derry dol' is right out of the folksong tradition of the British Isles in general, and England specifically. The old tunes often had nonsense words or syllables that carried the melody or created a rhythm; it's what Tom Lehrer satirized as "the inane refrain." It's what you did when you wanted to dance and nobody had any instruments. Or, it gives you a nice repeating chorus in your long story-ballad, like the old English song, "The Three Ravens":
There were three ravens sat on a tree,
Down a down, hey down a down
And they were black as they might be
With a down
The one of them said to his mate
What shall we for our breakfast take?
With a down, derry derry down, down
The 'derry-downs' are particularly English, which is right for Tom, whom JRRT saw in part as the spirit of the vanishing Oxford countryside. Irish nonsense lyrics seem to tend toward "whack fol the diddly-eye-o" sorts of words; in Scotland, the practice has a name: puirt-a-beul, or mouth music, and examples would be in Gaelic (so forgive me as I chicken out on that one, thank you). Anyway, I look at the whole thing as British scat singing: whether it's "hey dol, merry dol" or "oodlee-op bop doo-wah," the whole idea is to make music or get your feet moving.
Which, of course, Tom does, constantly. He hops and dances and makes simple, homey, earthy music. So it's even more a surprise when we discover how powerful he is. But that contradiction tells us everything about him: He's as simple and as powerful as a sunny day.
I really love the idea of Tom singing like a bird to protect his territory; it's a wonderful thought. But do we ever see him actively protecting his territory? I don't believe he interferes in that way. He is master of it like a Ph.D. would be master of a subject, he knows it intimately and can remain safe and keep others safe within it. But as Goldberry says, Tom is not the "owner" and doesn't bear the burden of safekeeping and nurturing the land.
Olórië
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Message 9 of 9 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 7:54 AM
I think there is power in Tom's tune. I don't necessarily believe that the words are powerful, but rather, he channels power through his words (if you follow me ...). I believe that Tom's power lies in Order and Balance. Notice, I did not say Goodness. Tom's power, in my opinion, is not aligned with Good or Evil. He is the natural balance. Tom has the potential of a saint but also, the fury of a devil. He feels no draw towards the ultimate instrument of Evil (Sauron's Ring) as he would have no reaction to a relic of Illuvatar.
Wow! These thoughts are disjointed ... hehe.
Back to the singing I guess ...
I think that Tom's nonsense singing derives from his origins. Tolkien created Bombadil as a bedtime story for his children and I'm certain that this fact plays a part in his apparent 'silliness'. "Hey dol, derry dol, merry dol my darling!" is the kind of thing that children delight in. Tolkien's task was to keep Bombadil as Bombadil but mature him a bit for an adult audience. This is what we see when Bombadil and the Hobbits stay up late and talk. We see a mature Bombadil.
Geez .... I did it again! I just cannot stay on topic with Bombadil ... he's such an interesting enigma!
Algamesh
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Message 1 of 9 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 7/31/2002 10:58 PM
Many have criticized the character of Tom Bombadil for his ritualistic singing. "Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling." Does the light hearted chant represent magic in an elemental way such as the theme of Arda or is it nonsense better left out?
_____________________
Reply
Message 2 of 9 in Discussion From: DaleAnn
Sent: 8/1/2002 4:52 AM
I've always thought that the "merry-dol" chant was a way to convey that "life" rests easily on Tom's shoulders. He's a "Don't sweat the small stuff -- and it's all small stuff" kind of guy. He is quite a confident sort...as we read in the poems and LotR. All it takes is a word and he is obeyed.
Now that you mention the "Theme of Arda" I wonder if he isn't "singing" a happier world into creation. Who knows what ME might look like if he wasn't there singing, trying to combat the evil that was overtaking it. Though I imagine the music of the Ainur to be "classical", it doesn't have to be. Why not jazz? Or Ragtime? Or Heavy Metal Rock? But, please, Eru, not Disco! Or some other forms that will remain nameless.... ----DA
__________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 9 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/1/2002 6:11 AM
I've always interpreted Tom's singing as an expression of overflowing life energy, joy at being alive, and an invitation for all other beings to join in his celebration. I find him a very meaningful and optimistic character. Had not thought of his singing as being connected to Arda. I don't think of it as 'creating', as in creating a world, but more as sustaining the goodness in this one.
Zauber
__________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 9 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/1/2002 6:23 AM
I believe that Tom's singing is a way to cheer and warm travellers he meets. It lifts their spirits and helps them relax and enjoy life. It causes people to think on the happier good side of things with the up beat tone of his songs.
Stormrider
______________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 9 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/1/2002 8:51 AM
I'm very pleased that Rivers opened this thread, it allows me to express an idea or theory I've mused with for some time regarding Tolkien's philology studies. With him being so enamoured with Nature it inspires me to take a leap and offer up my own theory which I suspect Tolkien believed as well.
I make mention in the introduction of this study regarding Bombadil's singing as akin to bird song, for example the mockingbird it will of course mimic many other birds songs about it, or sounds of it's enviorment but it's own song, which is unique to that speices, is generally sung in the early morning to assert it's domain is always repeated in threes with an unique ending note or notes at the end of third verse. Please excuse the poor onomatopoeia here:
Kia-cha! kia-cha! kia-warble cha ka-a-tee!
This is of course repeated three times and in most cases the "male" whom is singing is bounding from high point to high point of his territory to assert his domain.
Now let's try Tom:
Hey-dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillow!
And of course according to the Hobbits is repeated three or more times as Tom goes bounding from hilltop to hilltop.
Granted it is a grasp at straws and I suspect you might consider me a contestant for whose psychosis is this. But if your of a mind to delve beyond that which our vanity preaches about us. Perhaps just as the Elves awoke speech in the Ents, perhaps it was the birds that awoke speech in us. And we have since forgotten our roots?
I promise I won't get this deep anymore, perhaps I've been awake too long, who knows.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_____________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 9 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/1/2002 9:20 AM
Get as deep as your like, dear friend. All these different ideas expand our knoweldge and insight, and that is a very good thing.
I suddenly saw Tom going through his woods, bounding along singing, and in effect saying "This is Tom's place! This is Tom's place!", and that would invite and comfort travellers, as Storm mentioned, and also serve as a warning to any stray barrow-wights or unredeemed Orcs that they'd best be on best behavior. A beneficial and protective territorial melody.
Zauber
________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 9 in Discussion From: Mirdain
Sent: 8/1/2002 9:39 PM
Good evening!
I must agree that Tom Bombadil's singing may be an expression of singing life into the plants and beasts that surround him, or around the whole of Middle Earth. His song, and words, although seeming simplistic at first blush, are ritualistic and there is the assumption (at least for my interpretation) that he would sing the same verses, with new threads of thought, each and every sunrise or sunset. He may be a guardian, or represents an entity that is necessary for the balance and growth of nature.
Tom Bombadil seemed to me to be the one who was outside of the more natural characters in the story, if you could call wizards and hobbits that...and Tom seemed to represent an otherworldly element that was concerned with the plight, but like the gods of the Greeks and Celts, they did not necessarily get involved in it, unless of course they took a great liking to the one in need. Hence, Frodo & companions being saved in the Barrow.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Namarie
Mirdain
___________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 9 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/5/2002 9:25 PM
I see Tom's nonsense as ancient nonsense with a purpose: Tom sings English folk music. His 'hey dol, derry dol' is right out of the folksong tradition of the British Isles in general, and England specifically. The old tunes often had nonsense words or syllables that carried the melody or created a rhythm; it's what Tom Lehrer satirized as "the inane refrain." It's what you did when you wanted to dance and nobody had any instruments. Or, it gives you a nice repeating chorus in your long story-ballad, like the old English song, "The Three Ravens":
There were three ravens sat on a tree,
Down a down, hey down a down
And they were black as they might be
With a down
The one of them said to his mate
What shall we for our breakfast take?
With a down, derry derry down, down
The 'derry-downs' are particularly English, which is right for Tom, whom JRRT saw in part as the spirit of the vanishing Oxford countryside. Irish nonsense lyrics seem to tend toward "whack fol the diddly-eye-o" sorts of words; in Scotland, the practice has a name: puirt-a-beul, or mouth music, and examples would be in Gaelic (so forgive me as I chicken out on that one, thank you). Anyway, I look at the whole thing as British scat singing: whether it's "hey dol, merry dol" or "oodlee-op bop doo-wah," the whole idea is to make music or get your feet moving.
Which, of course, Tom does, constantly. He hops and dances and makes simple, homey, earthy music. So it's even more a surprise when we discover how powerful he is. But that contradiction tells us everything about him: He's as simple and as powerful as a sunny day.
I really love the idea of Tom singing like a bird to protect his territory; it's a wonderful thought. But do we ever see him actively protecting his territory? I don't believe he interferes in that way. He is master of it like a Ph.D. would be master of a subject, he knows it intimately and can remain safe and keep others safe within it. But as Goldberry says, Tom is not the "owner" and doesn't bear the burden of safekeeping and nurturing the land.
Olórië
______________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 9 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 7:54 AM
I think there is power in Tom's tune. I don't necessarily believe that the words are powerful, but rather, he channels power through his words (if you follow me ...). I believe that Tom's power lies in Order and Balance. Notice, I did not say Goodness. Tom's power, in my opinion, is not aligned with Good or Evil. He is the natural balance. Tom has the potential of a saint but also, the fury of a devil. He feels no draw towards the ultimate instrument of Evil (Sauron's Ring) as he would have no reaction to a relic of Illuvatar.
Wow! These thoughts are disjointed ... hehe.
Back to the singing I guess ...
I think that Tom's nonsense singing derives from his origins. Tolkien created Bombadil as a bedtime story for his children and I'm certain that this fact plays a part in his apparent 'silliness'. "Hey dol, derry dol, merry dol my darling!" is the kind of thing that children delight in. Tolkien's task was to keep Bombadil as Bombadil but mature him a bit for an adult audience. This is what we see when Bombadil and the Hobbits stay up late and talk. We see a mature Bombadil.
Geez .... I did it again! I just cannot stay on topic with Bombadil ... he's such an interesting enigma!
Algamesh