Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 16:10:05 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Shadow-Bride
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Message 1 of 4 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/21/2002 5:11 PM
Now call me crazy, but although this poem may have nothing to do with them, I always get the feeling either Thingol and Melian inspired this poem, or the poem inspired them. What references can you find to these two?
It's quite the somber poem and yet still gives a ray of hope. Seems almost a reversal of all the previous poems where Tolkien seems to imply light hearted fancy with and underlying message, in Shadow-Bride it starts out with a dark message yet leaves one with the hopeful fancy of a lasting love.
This is one of several poems as Tolkien states in the Preface taken from the "marginalia" (notes in a book's margin) and could be a piece of a much broader poem told by the Hobbits.
So which Hobbit might have been responsible for this tingler?
I'm embarassed to say I have found no previous mention of this poem in my studies yet, so I can't give you an accurate date as to it's first publishing. Can anyone else locate one?
Since we have to dwell in darkness with this poem for now, the next one will be the fun, Oliphaunt!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 2 of 4 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/21/2002 5:55 PM
This is a hard one to figure out. Two things jump out at me. One, that he was under some sort of spell that the shadow bride broke. Two, that she lives below the earth, and returns to dance with him one day a year. Do we have any lunar or solar eclipses that occur once a year? If we do, it might explain some of the shadow talk. In any case, I will have to continue thinking long and hard about this one.
Glor
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Message 3 of 4 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/22/2002 8:00 AM
In my mind I'm making connections to -- of all things -- Peter Pan! Afterall, he lost his shadow and Wendy had to sew it back on. But I don't think that's what's going on here.
Am I reading this right? There's a man, under some enchantment, that has turned him seemingly to stone, and he has no shadow.
The woman, 'clad in grey', does sound elvish. The man wakes up and kidnaps her, stealing her shadow and taking her below ground, like Persephone, but she gets to come up once a year when "hidden things awake" and dance with the man. Persephone at least got half a year topside!
I like Glor's idea of the eclipse; this does seem to symbolize some natural phenomenon, but exactly what eludes me. I'd like to hear more of what leads you to believe it might be about Thingol and Melian, Iarwain. A very puzzling poem.
Zauber
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Message 4 of 4 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/25/2002 9:24 PM
Glor, I am wondering if it was the Shadow Bride who broke the spell. "HE WOKE, as had he sprung of stone, and BROKE THE SPELL that bound him." Curious verse. And I wonder as you do, if there is some kind of yearly celestial occurrence that might explain their once a year meeting. I am reminded of an old Chines tale of two lovers who meet once a year coinciding with the crossing of 2 stars in the night sky.
Iarwain, what little I know of Thingol and Melian does not aid me in comprehending this verse. Why do Luthien’s parents remind you of this poem? Perhaps, you, Megn1, or others more acquainted with the Silmarillion can provide some understanding here.
What stands out for me is that the man of stone "clasps her fast" much the way Tom caught River-Woman’s daughter and "held her fast". The Mariner "snares" and "catches" the butterfly. I am even reminded of Princess Mee who is caught/fascinated by her reflection. In all these tales, a feeling of loneliness seems to prevail, each in his or her own way live out side the "real" world, In their loneliness they reach out for companionship and are fulfilled. The mariner, of course, is still searching for fulfillment. And you might also argue that Tom does not appear to be lonely, rather quite content in his surroundings. But I wonder, if he is so content, why does he need Goldberry? Does anyone else sense these feelings when they read the poems?
I agree with you, Zauber,that this is a very puzzling poem.
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Message 1 of 4 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/21/2002 5:11 PM
Now call me crazy, but although this poem may have nothing to do with them, I always get the feeling either Thingol and Melian inspired this poem, or the poem inspired them. What references can you find to these two?
It's quite the somber poem and yet still gives a ray of hope. Seems almost a reversal of all the previous poems where Tolkien seems to imply light hearted fancy with and underlying message, in Shadow-Bride it starts out with a dark message yet leaves one with the hopeful fancy of a lasting love.
This is one of several poems as Tolkien states in the Preface taken from the "marginalia" (notes in a book's margin) and could be a piece of a much broader poem told by the Hobbits.
So which Hobbit might have been responsible for this tingler?
I'm embarassed to say I have found no previous mention of this poem in my studies yet, so I can't give you an accurate date as to it's first publishing. Can anyone else locate one?
Since we have to dwell in darkness with this poem for now, the next one will be the fun, Oliphaunt!
Namárië,
Iarwain
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 4 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/21/2002 5:55 PM
This is a hard one to figure out. Two things jump out at me. One, that he was under some sort of spell that the shadow bride broke. Two, that she lives below the earth, and returns to dance with him one day a year. Do we have any lunar or solar eclipses that occur once a year? If we do, it might explain some of the shadow talk. In any case, I will have to continue thinking long and hard about this one.
Glor
___________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 4 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/22/2002 8:00 AM
In my mind I'm making connections to -- of all things -- Peter Pan! Afterall, he lost his shadow and Wendy had to sew it back on. But I don't think that's what's going on here.
Am I reading this right? There's a man, under some enchantment, that has turned him seemingly to stone, and he has no shadow.
The woman, 'clad in grey', does sound elvish. The man wakes up and kidnaps her, stealing her shadow and taking her below ground, like Persephone, but she gets to come up once a year when "hidden things awake" and dance with the man. Persephone at least got half a year topside!
I like Glor's idea of the eclipse; this does seem to symbolize some natural phenomenon, but exactly what eludes me. I'd like to hear more of what leads you to believe it might be about Thingol and Melian, Iarwain. A very puzzling poem.
Zauber
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 4 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/25/2002 9:24 PM
Glor, I am wondering if it was the Shadow Bride who broke the spell. "HE WOKE, as had he sprung of stone, and BROKE THE SPELL that bound him." Curious verse. And I wonder as you do, if there is some kind of yearly celestial occurrence that might explain their once a year meeting. I am reminded of an old Chines tale of two lovers who meet once a year coinciding with the crossing of 2 stars in the night sky.
Iarwain, what little I know of Thingol and Melian does not aid me in comprehending this verse. Why do Luthien’s parents remind you of this poem? Perhaps, you, Megn1, or others more acquainted with the Silmarillion can provide some understanding here.
What stands out for me is that the man of stone "clasps her fast" much the way Tom caught River-Woman’s daughter and "held her fast". The Mariner "snares" and "catches" the butterfly. I am even reminded of Princess Mee who is caught/fascinated by her reflection. In all these tales, a feeling of loneliness seems to prevail, each in his or her own way live out side the "real" world, In their loneliness they reach out for companionship and are fulfilled. The mariner, of course, is still searching for fulfillment. And you might also argue that Tom does not appear to be lonely, rather quite content in his surroundings. But I wonder, if he is so content, why does he need Goldberry? Does anyone else sense these feelings when they read the poems?
I agree with you, Zauber,that this is a very puzzling poem.