Wk 1, Bk 5, Ch 1 : 7 Stars 7 Stones 1 White Tree

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 10:17 PM

The Court of the Fountain
Copyright Ted Nasmith and Harper Collins. All Rights Reserved.

As Pippin and Gandalf cross the court,

"A sweet fountain played there in the morning sun, and a sward of bright green lay about it; but in the midst, drooping over the pool, stood a dead tree, and the falling drops dripped sadly from its barren and broken branches back into the clear water."

When he sees the tree, Pippin is reminded of Gandalf's words: Seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.

What are the seven stars?
What are the seven stones?
What is the White tree?
What is the significance of these to Gondor?
And what about this dead tree! It seems to mar the beauty of the fountain, so why don't the people of Gondor cut it down?

Stormrider

[Stormrider]

From: LilBufly21 Sent: 3/18/2003 1:34 PM
ok, I'm going to offer my input on these questions... I haven’t finished reading the Silmarillion yet [barely begun, actually] so most of the info I have is from the Encyclopedia of Arda, which isn’t complete, but offers a lot more information than I can remember off the top of my head. With that said, here goes….

The dead tree: it was the last white tree of Gondor, which died at the same time as Belecthor II, the 21st steward of Gondor. His son, Thorondir, succeeded him, and he was the one who left the dead tree standing. There was no way to get a new seedling, so Thorondir left the tree in the court in hope of the King’s return, which would be more than 100 years later when Aragorn takes the throne as King.

In my opinion, that’s the same reason that the people of Gondor leave the tree as it is, though it may take away from the beauty of the fountain – it’s a reminder of hope for them, that they shall have a righteous king once more.

The White Tree: the White Tree of Minas Tirith was a reminder of the lost Númenor, and descended from Nimloth of Númenor, ultimately said to be part of Telperion itself. Nimloth was the white tree of Númenor that grew in the King’s court and was burned at the beginning of Sauron’s power over Middle Earth. Isildur took one of the fruits before the tree burned, planting it in the courts of Minas Tirith. Telperion was the White Tree, the elder of the 2 Trees of Valinor. It shed silver light on the domain of the Valar, possessing dark green leaves with silver underbellies, and flowers that shed rain of silver dew.

The significance to Gondor? It was a reminder of better days, before days of conflict and war existed.

I find it interesting that just as the Valar had 2 trees [tree of gold and tree of silver], so do the people of Gondor. I haven’t quite finished what I want to say about the 7 stones and 7 stars, so I’ll save that for later, once I get my thoughts in order.

Cuanillë
...who's attempting to sound half as intelligent as everyone here

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From: Redha Sent: 3/18/2003 2:23 PM
Cuanille,

I find it interesting that just as the Valar had 2 trees [tree of gold and tree of silver], so do the people of Gondor.

Do you mean that the people of Gondor have a dead tree and a living tree or something else? I didn't quite get what you are saying here and the idea is very appealing.

I have been looking into the White Tree for a while now too. Just to add what you have already said...

Tar-Palantir, whose name means "far-seeing" just like the seven stones, the King of Numenor warned his successors that the royal line would die if the White Tree perished. A later king, Ar-Pharazon, influenced by his war captive, Sauron (yes that Sauron), thought to kill the White Tree. But before that happened, Isildur stole a fruit from the tree. Ar-Pharazon broke the ban against men going to Valinor and Numenor was destroyed. But with Elendil and his sons, a royal line and a White Tree lived on. So, the living tree is more than just a reminder of past glory. The dead tree is like a broken sword. Only one worthy will be able to renew it and wield its inherent power once again.

Redha

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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/18/2003 3:04 PM
Wow this is a long one.

The Seven Stars refers to the constellation we call The Big Dipper. It was called The Sickle of the Valar and was put in the sky by Varda as a warning to Melkor and his followers(Of Beren and Luthien, Sil).

The Seven Stones refers to the Palantiri. They were a gift from the elves to the Numenoreans during the time of their friendship.

The White Tree is a long one. The original White Tree was Telperion, eldest of the Trees of Valinor, created by Yavanna. It was destroyed by Melkor and Ungoliant and its last flower became the Moon. Yavanna also made an image of the White Tree and gave it to the elves of Tirion. It was called Galathilion. One of its saplings was planted in the center of Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle. It was called Celeborn. The elves of Tol Eressea gave one of its saplings to the Numenoreans. It was planted in the King's Court and called Nimloth. Shortly before the Fall of Numenor, Sauron had Nimloth cut down and burned. Fortunately, Isildur took one of its fruit before it was destroyed. He carried it with him to Middle Earth after the Fall of Numenor and planted it in Minas Ithil, Tower of the Moon. It was also destroyed, but not before one of its seedlings was planted in Minal Tirith.

Now for the real question - so what? I believe all of these things symbolized Numenor at the height of its glory. The Seven Stars symbolized the friendship and protection of the Valar. The Seven Stones symbolized the friendship and knowledge of the Elves. The White Tree symbolized the hope and longevity resulting from their friendship with the Elves and the Valar. All of these symbols were represented in the standard of King Elessar, representing the restoration of the glory of the kingdom of men in Middle Earth.

-- Rusco

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From: Redha Sent: 3/18/2003 3:37 PM
Rusco,

Nimloth, the first White Tree, was given to Elros, the first king of Numenor, the brother of Elrond. He chose to be mortal. He was an elven prince decended from Thingol and Turgon. So, the White Tree is more than just a token. It is actually a totem. IMHO, a gesture indicating the sovereignty of Middle-earth being passed into the hands of Men. If they lose it, they are no longer the heirs to the kingdom. Aragorn knew that it meant more than his crown to find a living sapling.

I think it is also significant that Tolkien used the same names of the gift Trees for Thingol's kinsmen. Nimloth was the name of Elros' grandmother, Galathil's daughter, and Celeborn's neice.

Redha

[Stormrider]

From: LilBufly21 Sent: 3/18/2003 4:07 PM
Rusco & Redha seem to have filled in the parts about the 7 stars & 7 stones, so I'll refrain from posting the same information.

Redha - when I said that it was interesting that the Valar & Gondor both had 2 trees, I was referring to Gondor having both a living and dead tree. though I hate math, I notice things that occur in numbers... hence my notice of the 2 trees of the Valar/Gondor, the 7 stones/stars/dwarf rings, etc. We can all see the pattern of numbers that Tolkien uses throughout the books.

I hadn't intended on going any deeper than noticing the 2 trees, but now I feel the need to do some digging =)

Cuanille

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From: Olórin Sent: 3/23/2003 6:12 AM
Ruscosenda:
Were did you found the relation between the Sicle of the Valar and the seven stars of the song of lore? In my opinion the seven stars refered to the seven Palantiri. See the banner of Aragorn:
patchdistributor.bizland.com/LOR01.jpg
rings.x-y.net/image/E(gondor)2-1.jpg

had a tree, seven stars (the palantiri) and a crown (kingship). The stars are the palantiri.

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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/23/2003 8:46 PM
Olorin,

You may be right, but let's look at the verse:

Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.

There are a couple of problems with the interpretation that the seven stars are the Palantiri. First problem: If the seven stars are the Palantiri, then what are the seven stones. Second problem: I believe the emblem on Aragorn's standard represented the restoration of the Kingdom of the Numenoreans. It includes seven stars and a white tree, but where are the seven stones? I believe they are not included because the majority of the Palantiri were lost and never restored.

My evidence that the seven stars are the sickle of the Valar is purely circumstantial. Since, that is the only reference I am aware of specifically to seven stars in Tolkien's writings, I assumed that they were one and the same. I would be glad to hear any evidence you could provide as to them being the Palantiri.

-- Rusco

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From: Redha Sent: 3/23/2003 9:27 PM
Rusco and Olorin,

Another bit of circumstantial evidence for the Sickle being the seven stars in the rhyme is that, at the time of Numenor's destruction, the seaports settled by Men in Middle-earth were all north of the island. The Elf-friends would have been guided by the North Star and the constellation.

The seven palantir were very important in the building of the new kingdoms in the north and south. They were not lost until later wars. But, the several diffent banners for the new kings always used stars. So, there may be more to discover about heraldry in Numenor before it sank.

The stones as symbols could easily be blended into the seven stars. There are seven pairs of Valar with one ruler and seven stones with one master stone. But, then there are seven Dwarf-lords too...

* three times three calls up the nine kings, right?*
Redha

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From: Popo Sent: 3/24/2003 12:02 AM
Concerning Stars:

The 8 rayed stars, seven of them, found on the "royal arms" of the House of Durin, do explicitly represent the seven major stars of the "Sickle of the North," alternately given as the constellation of "The Plough."

But the seven, "5-rayed" stars, found upon the insignia of Elendil's house do not seem to represent the stars of any constellation. When Elendil's small "fleet" left the ruin of Numenor, seven of his nine ships were entrusted with the special chore of bearing the palantiri. Each of these seven ships, thus honoured with the presence of a palantir, bore a single star upon its banner to visibly mark the location of the seeing stones during their perilous trans-shipment.

Hence, in one sense, Olorin is correct in seeing a direct link between the stars and the stones. Although it is not clear, it seems that the individual "stars" became part of the insignia of the captains of these ships as they are referred to as being the "Seven stars of Elendil and his captains..." (LotR index, see "Star, as emblem," esp #4 sub note (4), p 1193).

I note that the stars depicted in the emblems provided by Olorin are eight-pointed, or 8-rayed, something that disagrees with the text of LotR (p. 1193). Are these two representations from Tolkien's own artwork? The second emblem has a "star" above the crest of the crown that looks "suspiciously" cruciform, something that would be anachronistic to the era of Gondor's foundation, although the same device is seen (slightly less "cruciform" to my eyes) on the tracing of the symbols Gandalf discovered on the Gates of Moria (FotR, p. 323).

"Three times three..." refers to the total number of ships, so I always thought, but its placement in the verse text makes it equally applicable to "kings" which I cannot relate directly to actual "crowned heads" traveling with the fleet of Elendil. At the moment of the transfer of the house of Elendil to "continental" Middle-earth, they were not a royal line, merely the princes of Andunie in exile. In this regard I think "kings" (in this verse) is merely a metaphoric device, comparable to calling ALL Numenoreans the "Kingly Folk?" If this explanation is correct, then the 9 "kings" potentially referred to would probably represent the 9 leaders of the fleet, including Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion?

[Stormrider]

From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/24/2003 4:13 AM
Popo, very happy to see you! Would you mind telling us which book and chapter your evidence is from? I don't have the "all in one" LotR which apparently has a better index than the ones I possess. I tried various searches, but all were unproductive. For instance under Elendil it says "I, 29, 83, etc. II,18, etc. III, 26, etc." ETC of all things to say in an index! There is no entry "Star, as emblem".

Letter #211 pg 281, shows a picture of Tolkien's interpretation of the Gondorian crown. "I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle."

Here is a link to a painting that depicts a close resemblance, however the "hat" part in Tolkien's drawing appears much taller and the wings a bit less large.
www.torania.com/return/hildebrandt-crowning.htm --DA

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From: Popo Sent: 3/24/2003 5:13 AM
Oh, yes, different editions... well, in the single volume 1991 edition the references are on page 1193; and in the hardbound, three volume version, 1965 edition, the same material appears under the Index of "Things," as Index IV, below the item "Star, as emblem:" page 439, RotK. But if you have the 1965 paperback edition, they skimped on the indices to save on printing costs, and there is no Index IV, "Things;" but a truncated index is to be found in this version where "Things" appears as Part Three of the Glossary-Index, but, does not contain the entry I am citing. I was unaware that the paperback version differed that much from the hardbound volumes of the same year's edition! I can provide the entire entry if you, and others, do not have access to the fuller version in the hardbound books. Material in square brackets, [.....], represents my own inclusions largely to cross-index the volume numbers and pages with their chapters where you'll have to flip thru the pages of your own, various editions by yourselves if you wish to find the exact points of reference:

Return of the King, Hardbound, 1965 (pp. 439 - 440)

Star, as emblem:
(1) Star of the House of Feanor, vol. I, 318;
[FotR, "A Journey in the Dark"]

(2) Star of Elendil, vol. III, 123, the Elendilmir, III, 323; as emblem of the North Kingdom, III 137, 245;
[RotK, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" 123; Appendix A, 323; "The Houses of Healing" 137; "The Steward and the King" 245]

(3) Seven stars (above a crown and anvil), emblems of Durin, vol. I, 318;
["A Jouyrney in the Dark"]

(4) Seven stars of Elendil and his captains, I - 290, II - 202, III - 25, 123, 231.
[The Ring Goes South, 290; The Palantir, II-202; Minas Tirith, III - 25; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, III- 123; The Field of Cormallen, III-231]

(1) and (3) had eight rays;

(2) and (4) had six.*

(1) was of silver

(2) [ was] of diamond and represented the Star of Earendil (III, 315);
[RotK, Appendix A]

(3) represented the [constellation] Plough;

(4) originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir (II, 202); in Gondor the seven stars were set about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown.
[TTT, II- 202, A Knife in the Dark]

*note, the 1991 edition, single volume work says "five" not six rays per star! Otherwise the two hardback editions are identical.

Sheesh, DaleAnn! Does everybody have to present this much documentation for such a minor point?! A scholarly crowd indeed! Yarf...

* * *

From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/24/2003 6:40 AM
Ummm...Popo, I'm sorry that I wasn't more specific in my question. All I want to know is where does it say as you wrote: Each of these seven ships, thus honoured with the presence of a palantir, bore a single star upon its banner to visibly mark the location of the seeing stones during their perilous trans-shipment.
Guess what? My pages don't match the ones you gave. I've looked at a number of your chapter references. I don't know if I am just plain blind or what and, I really don't want to read the whole chapters. So, I am completely frustrated.

I forgot to state the reason why I bothered to include a reference to the crown of Gondor. Olorin's link rings.x-y.net/image/E(gondor)2-1.jpg shows a dissimilar crown to the one Tolkien drew in Letters. So, I think this is a "made up" version of the flag. --DA

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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/24/2003 11:18 AM
Popo!
Wonderful to see you've found your quadraped keyboard again. Choco was heart broken upon your departure (I think she fancies your canine wit) but I told her not to fret and said: "For he is as the sunny day, to be remembered and looked forward to when rains must fall, and enjoyed when beams of warmth find passage through the clouds."

She bit me, and advised me to give up poetry.
Nice reference to "The Plough", and Durin's Crown. On a side thougth Menelvagor (S) or Menelmacar (Q) both meaning "Heavens Swordsman" or Orion to most of us might be the reference to this quote as the main or brightest stars making up the shoulders, legs and belt add up to seven, although I haven't noted any litrature confirming it in Tolkien's works, but a Hittite reference to Aqhat(Orion) being killed and having his bow (older version) dropped into the sea is tempting. Sort of an avenging (Bowman) Swordsman of Númenor. Choc just bit me again, too poetic huh?

I had no trouble finding your reference in my "65 Red Book" on page 439, and I found it also in the second printing 1966 Uwin "Canada" edition paperback on 439. Indeed your reference can not be found in the 1965 Houghton Mifflin edition as you stated. Too bad so many have this copy. I wonder if later published H.M. editions amended that, because there are some jewels one can miss if they don't have the right edition. I'll check around the book stores. In the meantime, I picked the " 65 Uwin Canada" paperback edition up on Ebay. All three books in the Tolkien illustrated storage box for 15.00$. "A bit steep for paper backs." I thought, but they are in good condition, and collectable. Others of this same edition are up for auction still, should any here not want to have to spend 75.00$ or more, for a new or used Red Book , yet still have a more complete edition with these references.

Sorry for the Ebay plug everyone!
Anyhow good to see your paw prints on my screen again. Any word of your esteemed Green Dragon cohort, or have you tired of his comapany? I always wondered how you managed to stay clear of that tail and flaming breath of his?
Namárië ArPopo Uruloko huo
(Farewell Noble Popo [the] dog of Fire Dragon)
Iarwain

[Stormrider]

From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/24/2003 8:30 PM
Well, I hate to admit it; but, after looking this up in the index I have to agree with Popo. Assuming that the index was approved by Tolkien, it clearly says that the seven stars represented the stars on the seven ships that carried the palantiri to Middle Earth.

Why this little tidbit, as well as others, would be hidden in the index is beyond me. I guess I'll have to read the entire indices now too.

Thanks Popo,

Rusco

p.s. Marilynn, I mean Magpie, I understand you confusion now. There is no page reference for this quote. The explanation is actually embedded in the index itself.

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From: magpie Sent: 3/24/2003 11:29 PM
Rusco,

I'm glad you understand my confusion about the quote. Now can you explain my confusion about the fact that I haven't posted in this thread?

Me thinks you might have me confused with Dale Ann (?), not that I'm not capable of great confusion...

Magpie

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From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/25/2003 5:29 AM
Rusco, you mean I'm not blind? It's imbedded in the index? I got frustrated for nothing? Does this mean I have to go out and buy the hardbound editions everybody has been citing? (yes, eventually)
Thanks for letting me know, so, I don't spend another frustrating day trying to locate something I'll never find!!!!!!!!!!! --DA

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From: Popo Sent: 3/26/2003 2:48 AM
A healthy "Yarf" to you, Iarwain Ben Adar!

So, Choco still remembers
all the fast freedoms
of our tandem-skateboard rides?!
Our manes of gold and chocolate
were interlaced
in those fine days
by the winds of our bright speeds!

Our jaws were lifted then together,
and our twinned songs
rose in plaintive yowls
to greet the springing form
of the giant Moon
as He leapt over
the Misty Mountains,
and spilt His golden magics
through the softly shaded woods!

It was good to run with a flanking comrade
through the Willow Meads of Ossiriand,
and good to sing the Moon to sleep,
and bark the Sun into the sky!
And very, very good to rush
-- snouts-first with Choco--
into the tumbling breakers
of the wide and sund'ring sea!

In those fine days,
when Middle-earth was wider,
and the fetch of the Ocean
ran straight across the world,
we could dip our noses
into the foams of the sea
and find there,
still strong and noble,
the scents of Valinor!

Yarf!

Yeah, Choco used to nip me also, whenever the poetic fits would come and twist my simple barks and yowls into the contorted rhymes and meters that poesy demands... sigh, I fear she only loved me cause I was taller, stronger, and could tumble the lids off many garbage pails -- otherwise forever beyond her questing nose...

RE: "ArPopo Uruloko huo" -- YARF!!! I LIKE IT! Thanks!

Now, to make this post more topic relevant, and so, perhaps, avoid the dislocating, editorial paws of Stormrider and AnnieLT:

Good grief man, er "Nature Spirit," er Iarwain, what are you doing -- fiddling about with the Hittite/ Hatti versions of the Great Songs!? Bravo! But with, or without his bow, Orion/ Aqhat/ Menelmacar, as a field source from which to pluck out the "seven stars," is something to consider by itself -- but as you mention, it requires a definite citation dragged from some dim page that meets DaleAnn's admirable standards of validity. As I nose my way through the canonical corpus JRRT left us, I'll see if I can sniff out any such connection. I am intrigued, at present, with running down the purpose/ reason for the Dwarven choice of the "Sickle" as the source of Durin's stellar symbols, and wonder if they called that asterism by a different name -- "The Hammer of the North?" LOL!

Ahhh, perhaps we should let Sleeping Dragons lie, as I tried many times to tell that dratted burglar Bilbo, and I'm only out of the kennel on a borrowed passport myself...

Lick Ole Choco once or twice for me, Ole Friend, and just a suggestion -- tip the garbage pail over, before you express yourself in verse, it'll give her something other than your ankles to chew while you rhapsodize in High Elven!

[Stormrider]

From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/26/2003 10:50 AM
Popo,

I found some information on a couple of web sites that seem to indicate that this constellation was called Durin's Crown by the dwarves because it was these stars that Durin saw, along with his reflection, in the Mirrormere. He took this as a sign that this was the location for Khazad-Dum.

-- Rusco

p.s. The hobbits referred to this constellation as the Wain, because it resembled a horse-drawn cart.

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From: Popo Sent: 3/27/2003 5:43 AM
Ruscosenda:

Pleased to make your acquaintance!

Yes, the stars of the Mirromere... I wish Tolkien had been a bit more explicit in his description of this wonder (p. 352, LotR omnibus edition; chpt VI, Loth Lorien). Gimli does not even give us a count of these stars, or a description of their colours, apparent magnitudes, or configuration. I would have thought that the peculiar shape of the "Plough," "Wain," or "Great Bear" would make an odd crown indeed, unless the Dwarven regal headgear was somewhat like a long-billed baseball cap -- something not seen on the westgate crown image of Moria... lol. But, considering the note from the appendix, I agree that the "Plough" stars are the most likely candidates for this Mirromere phenomenon.

Still, I would like to see more than our speculations here, some confirming citation. Do any of your sources mention such?

One line of attack on this problem, I thought, would be to check the date of the formation of the "Sickle" (Valacirca), and make sure that this event occurred before Durin found Moria. It did, in fact the "Sickle" was created before the wakening of the Elves and Dwarves. In the Silmarillion, p. 48, Tolkien even refers to this constellation as "the crown of seven mighty stars..." so, odd shaped or not, JRRT seems to have found it suitably "crownlike." But I still have found no explicit statement that the Mirrormere stars were the lights of the Valacirca. But, circumstantially, the case looks very good!

Of course, 7 stars for the 7 Dwarf houses would be a nice pairing as well, but I've found nothing yet to suggest the validity of such a coorespondence...

Thanks!

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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/28/2003 5:24 AM
Rusco good pick-up!

And for Popo, you, and anyone else following this thread,

About eight years ago I took an astronomy class, suffice to say it was a bit more than my Tolkien twisted mind could really fathom. But an amateur astronomer, cartographer, friend, and fellow Tolkien fan of mine named Beleg sat together with me one night and took all the stellar references from the tales and applied them to their modern equivalents. I’ll post the entire list to the Language Board, but here in brief is the list and a quote from the Silmarillion. This may help illuminate our star question a bit.

These are the constellations mentioned in the following quote with their probable modern equivalents:

Anarríma- (Q: Sun- great host? Isolated from rimbë- great number.) [Pleiades] This was a tough one, as the Sindarin equivalent “Remmirath”- “Mesh-jewels-many” is only mentioned once in TFotR on page 91, referring to it as the “Netted Stars”. In Quenya “rembë” means “mesh” so the suffix ríma could be an inflected form of “mesh” as well.

Menalmacar- (Q: Heaven-swordsman) [Orion]

Soronúmë- (Q: Eagle of the West) [Aquila (L) Eagle]

Telumendil- (Q: Lover of the Heavens /devoted to.) [Hercules, but still debatable]

Valacirya- (Q: Sickle of the Valar, also called “The Seven Stars”, The Wain, and {probably} Durin’s Crown.) [Ursa Major (L) Greater Bear aka Big Dipper]

Wilwarin- (Q: Butterfly) [Cassiopea]

And here is the quote I mentioned from page 38 of “The Silmarillion” Of the Coming of Elves:

“Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma, and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the North as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirya, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.”

So it is not truly clear as to Menelmacar’s nature, but it refers to it foreboding a “Last Battle”. Being that there are few Elves left to do battle in Middle-earth, it is easy to jump to the assumption it was indeed set into the sky for Men, and that the line of Elendil, at least, should know it’s lore. But I’ve learned assuming will get you into trouble, so I’ll keep looking for a definite quote. I think Rusco’s crown theory is pretty much proven by this quote however.

Namárië,

Iarwain