Wk 1, Bk 5, Ch 1: Pippin's Pledge to Denethor

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 10:06 PM

Pippin Presents His Sword to Denethor
Copyright Douglas Beekman. All Rights Reserved.

Pippin is called upon to tell the tale of Boromir's death. Despite Denethor's suspicious glare and his cold accusations, Pippin shows his grit, forgets his fear, and easily relates the events. Proudly he speaks up for Hobbits and offers his service to Denethor in payment of the debt he feels he owes to Boromir for trying to protect them from the Orcs.

Do you think Pippin had planned to do this?

Do you think he would have done it if circumstances had been different: If Orcs had not attacked the Fellowship, carried the Hobbits away, and Boromir had returned to Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin?

Stormrider

[Stormrider]

From: LindaS Sent: 3/16/2003 10:28 PM
The change in Pippin comes across as unexpected and sudden. Up until the moment Gandalf and Pippin appear before Denethor, it's still the old Pippin, apparently. Just before they enter the great hall, Gandalf, in his wisdom, believes it necessary to warn Pippin to mind himself.

Denethor's cold regard of Pippin seems to act on the hobbit like a slap across the face. He is roused as if all that he'd been through and observed comes to be part of a new Pippin, who can think, act and speak wisely. His decision to offer his service to the Steward plays an important part in preventing a great tragedy.

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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/17/2003 8:30 AM
Pippin's pledge was spur of the moment. After seeing Denethor's reaction to Boromir's death changed Pippin. He finally realized that Boromir died protecting him and he felt he had to some how repay him for it.

Desi

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From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 10:31 AM
I would say that Pippin's action before Denethor were sudden and unplanned, but not spur-of-the-moment, for the reasons I've already stated. Linda

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From: CamelliaD Sent: 3/17/2003 12:48 PM
Pippin's "payment of my debt" as he terms his oath to Denethor, is one of the marvelous surprises in which Tolkien casts aside another curtain to reveal the depth unexpected in these heros from the Shire. Remember our "burglar", Bilbo? We have much more coming in the actions of Merry, Frodo, & my hero, Sam. Each in turn exhibit strength of character & insight that are uncharacteristic of unpretentious little people who relish their cozy hobbitt holes & six meals a day.

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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 3/17/2003 4:23 PM
(This might sound like I am being too picky: but I can't help being a stickler for details. So, I have to say that, much as I like the setting of the picture Sormy provided at the beginning of this thread, it isn't very accurate: Pip first laid his sword at the Steward's feet, then he presented the hilt, not the sharp end!)

And certainly not: Pip could not have planned any such thing, without first seeing who and what Denthor was. I think "spur of the moment" is a good way to put it: but perhaps even better might be: "sudden inspiration." I have felt this myself, when a sudden thought to act just seems SO right that I cannot honsetly make any other choice.

MtM

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From: Fosco Baggins Sent: 3/17/2003 6:09 PM
Indeed, in a way it is spur of the moment, but in another regard, it was something that was building. Both Merry and Pippin have had a long time now among High Elves, warriors, wizards and the like. The have seen first hand, the honor and deportment of many. It is not surprising after all they have been through thus far, to want to feel less like "baggage" and more like a contributing member to the cause. So, once an opportunity arises to be of use, it was honorable and clever of him to think of it. It is also beneficial to the narrative, because it then frees Gandalf to explore other options when haste is needed.

Fosco

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From: galenas Sent: 3/17/2003 6:48 PM
I don't think Pip decided to do this ahead of time.....he wasn't even sure of what he was walking into when he entered that room. I don't think of it as a "spur of the moment" notion either.....to me that is snagging a snickers bar in the grocery line. I sense rather the "inspiration" to act, no matter the motivation. Haven't we all paused in our tracks at some time and stopped a fight....stood up for the underdog....emptied our wallet to a stranger....picked up trash....painted over graffiti....and so on, just because it was right in our hearts at the moment? Tolkien again shows me his genius, he shows us a bit of ourselves in Pip.

Galenas
(the long winded)

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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/17/2003 7:50 PM
I think Pippin did do this on the spur of the moment. I don't think he planned it at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think he realized what he had just commited himself to do, until he thought about it later. Nevertheless, I don't want to detract from the great comments about Pippin's character. It took a lot of courage to stand up to Denethor, which is what I think he was doing. Denethor was treating him like a child, and Pippin was going to show him that he was a man. Pippin shows this side of himself again during his initial encounter with Bergil. Some people take longer than others, but I think we finally see Pippin growing up.

-- Rusco

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From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 8:04 PM
I think it is more useful to think of Pippin's meeting with Denethor as the catalyst that causes the change in Pippin's attitude.

When Pippin speaks to the men that at first barred their way to Denethor, Pippin tells them that Boromir died saving him and Merry, and that although there is "little service" he could offer Denethor "what I can do, I would, remembering Boromir the brave." So Pippin already acknowledges that he owes a debt.

Just before entering the hall to meet Denethor, Gandalf instructs Pippin on how to behave, and to be mindful of saying too much, and says "If you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep, wake up now!"

And, standing before Denethor, Steward of Gondor, Pippin wakes up.

[Stormrider]

From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/17/2003 10:28 PM
MtM--very funny! Actually I did notice that Pippin was handing the point to Denethor rather than the hilt. I had several pictures to chose from and why I chose this one was because you can see the statues of the past rulers in the blue background and I thought they were very nicely done.

I agree that Pippin seems to be "growing up." I think he may have thought that he would be of some kind of help to Denethor and Gondor during the whole war effort, but I don't think he had planned to personally offer his sword the way he did to Denethor. It was an offer of gratitude and honor to Boromir. And what spurred him to do it was the tone of voice Denethor used and Pippin's own pride in himself and hobbits that inspired his action.

Stormrider

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From: LindaS Sent: 3/18/2003 10:28 AM
I think the picture is actually showing Denethor holding the sword with both hands and, with the hilt pointed toward Pippin, is giving it back.

Sorry, Denethor is not giving it back, he is holding it so Pippin can touch the hilt of the sword while declaring the oath.

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From: Olórin Sent: 3/18/2003 6:30 PM
LindaS:
Sorry, Denethor is not giving it back, he is holding it so Pippin can touch the hilt of the sword while declaring the oath.

Exactly, Pippin is declaring the oath. The image is correct, the (image) explanation is not.

I think Pippin had not planed the situation, it was spontanious... it is truth that he had told a man that Boromir died saving him and Merry, and that although there is "little service" he could offer Denethor he told: "what I can do, I would, remembering Boromir the brave" but I think Pippin did what he did in a "pure" way, spontaniously.

If the Orcs had not atack the Fellowship, however, I think that Pippin wouldn't do the same thing, IMO.

The fact is that Pippin grew up during the meeting with Denethor.

[Stormrider]

From: Artemis Sent: 3/19/2003 9:25 AM
Above all, Hobbits are adaptable. They always seem to do the unexpected. Partly because they don't scheme and plan and they don't have a hidden agenda.

The spontaneity of Pippin's pledge to Denethor reminded me exactly of the spontaneity of Frodo suddenly volunteering to take the ring to Modor. I love how Merlin (MtM) put it "sudden inspiration." I have felt this myself, when a sudden thought to act just seems SO right that I cannot honsetly make any other choice.

As for the great debate over the picture..... "The old man laid the sword along his lap, and Pippin put his hand to the hilt..." I think that is what the picture is showing. The artist had a little trouble with perspective perhaps because at first glance it does look like Pippin is handing the sword to Denethor with the "business end" in, but if you look at it closely you can see that Denethor is holding it accross his lap as described in the book. I gotta admit, this is a group most focused on detail...LOL

Artemis

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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/20/2003 10:34 AM
Upon looking at an enlarged image of this picture I note the hilt is drawn over or above Pippin's right hand and Denethor is holding the blade with both hands.It is a matter of twisted perspective. The fact Pippins right hand is under the handle or hilt, and the fact that Denethor's grip on the blade is in "real life" placing the hilt towards the left hand forground makes it impossible for Pippin to be contacting the hilt at all. His right hand is raised in attention and empty with head bowed to offer his life to his now King.
Indeed Artemis details are the delight here.

I feel that this act of Pippin, and Merry with Théoden, are not just waking points for the young Hobbit's courage, but also waking points for the reader that although Hobbits may appear rustic, they have maintained a courtly and courteous set of manners and ethics. As I pointed out in Merry's thread he was the son of the Thain of the Shire, and therefore royalty amongst Hobbit's. Pippin as well had blue blood, and although he and Merry acted the Playboys, they would soon have to take responsiblity as leaders within the Shire if the Ring adventure had not taken place. The rumours in Gondor of the Periannath Prince were truely not far from the mark. As well these actions of the young Hobbits coming into there own, to me, forshadow the event of Aragorn finally coming into his reign.

So I think even without such actions as the Fellowship's fall, and the isolation Pippin was now cast in, his reactions would be the same. To fight the good fight, and serve whichever leader was fighting that same battle. Willing to offer his life to save good seems to be an almost constant amongst Hobbits.
Namárië,
Iarwain

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From: Colleen Sent: 3/27/2003 7:43 PM
I don't think Merry's pledge to Theoden was quite as spontaneous as Pippen's to Denethor. It seems to me Merry was looking for a way to 'connect' to Theoden and his oath was his means. It may have been unplanned, but it didn't seem as out of the blue as Pippen's oath.

Colleen

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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/31/2003 2:13 AM
Great ideas everyone, don't think there is much left to add lol ! I am starting to regret for wanting to finish the TTT study first before participating in this one, seems I have missed a few interesting discussions already...

First of all, I agree with most of you that Pippin had indeed not planned his oath; as for finally growing up there, I think that the growing up had started already when they had been captured by the Uruk Hai. I believe it was Stormrider that stated in the TTT study that Merry and Pippin first started to realize that they had to learn to take care of themselves (when they were prisoners), and they make a good start there with Pippin leaving the leaf shaped brush, and after that their adventures with Treebeard. So in this way, I look upon Pippin's pledge as the final stage of his growing up.

Having resided in the company of Men and Elves for so long, as Fosco states, he has taken over their honor and deportment, but in his own way (without losing his characteristic spontaneity). Also, with Denethor almost accusing him for having killed Denethor, he needed some way to convince the Steward of his good intentions. Pippin must have thought that offering his service and loyalty to Denethor was a good way to prove his sincereness, and probably it was. Otherwise Denethor wouldn't have accepted it, I suspect.

Alaere