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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:29:09 GMT -6
From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 10:27 PM Prince Imrahil
Copyright Donato Giancola. All Rights Reserved The Prince seems to be a very trusted person and worthy of the high esteem given him by those of Gondor. What do we know of Prince Imrahil? What relationship does he have with Gondor? How do the Prince and his people come by their high blood? Stormrider |
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:30:50 GMT -6
From: LindaS Sent: 3/21/2003 10:01 PM
I've been checking the on-line Encyclopedia of Arda.
In the tradition of Dol Amroth, which is a headland of western Gondor, Imrahil is descended from Numenoreans and also from a half-elven.
The EofA suggests that this information is somewhat sketchy.
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From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/22/2003 12:20 PM
There is also much more detail on this story of his lineage in Unfinished Tales which I was reading the other day. There is also some information about this in Peoples of Middle Earth which is part of the HoME series. I don't have that particular book...yet. Does anyone else have it?
I want to give all the members a chance to delve into this before I post anything about it, so I will wait to see what more information you all can come up with first!
Stormrider
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From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/22/2003 5:39 PM
Well, earlier today my reply to this thread got timed out. At the time, I was in no mood to reconstruct it, so now, I will try to write quickly and refuse interruptions.
Prince Imrahil shares the suffix* "-rahil" with Adrahil, the father of Findulas, Denethor's wife and the mother of his children. Unfinished Tales in the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" Chapter states that Adrahil is Imrahil's father, but this relationship is not brought up as such in RotK. There he is called 'kinsman of the lord' (Denethor). I believe that Tolkien was meaning a closer relationship than just that both were of Numenorian descent.
The story of Imrahil's ancestors is found in UT, also in the same chapter. Mithrellas, Silvan elf and handmaiden to Nimrodel got separated from the group in the hills above the Bay of Belfalas. A Numenorean, Imrazor found her and took her to wife. She bore him two children then slipped away one day. He never saw her again, but the son, Galador, became the ancestor to the Princes of Dol Amroth.
According to Letter #244, Tolkien states "..to be the Prince of Ithilien, [was] the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Numenorian state of Gondor..." (brackets mine) This suggests to me, that traditionally, the Prince of Dol Amroth was in the line of command of Gondor.
Stormy, the only thing that Peoples of Middle Earth can add is a geneology (family tree) of Dol Amroth. This was cut from the published appendices. Also, of note is that the word "Prince" was attached to Adrahil, but taken out in the published appendices, also.
Let's not grow dependent on The Encyclopedia of Arda which contains some misinformation. --DA
*not sure if this is truly a suffix or a combination of a root and suffix.
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From: Kendal Sent: 8/21/2003 4:11 AM
Imrahil in HoMe Vol. XII -- "The Peoples of Middle-earth"
Just as all HoMe volumes (containing alternate versions of the finalized LotR) must be used with caution when trying to flesh out the published narrative of the trilogy, so likewise vol. XII, "The Peoples of Middle-earth," needs to be approached with some trepidation when we seek to use it as a source of further knowledge concerning Imrahil, Lord of Dol Amroth.
Even the name, "Imrahil," underwent significant alterations as Tolkien put together his final, published version of LotR. An early form of the "Appendix on Languages," (pp 19 - 84) originally stated that the related names Imrahil and Adrahil are NOT directly Elven, but come from the Numenorean tongue, the Adunaic. (footnote, p. 32: HoMe XII) A later note on p. 36, which may actually pre-date the Adunaic explanation of "Imrahil," tells us that the name is a Telerian Elven invention along with Nimrodel, Amroth, Finduilas, and Adrahil. If indeed the general outlines of the Nimrodel - Amroth Tale are accepted as the base for the rise of the House of Dol Amroth (in the coastal fief of Dol Amroth, Gondor) one might well expect an Elven origin for all the major names used by, or related to this princely House.
Pages 220 - 224 in HoMe XII present us with a partial chart of the geneology of Dol Amroth. This chart only reaches back to the Angelimir, 20th Prince of that line, Third Age 2866 - 2977. His son, Adrahil (no wife or siblings given) 2917 - 3010 TA, had two daughters, Lvriniel (died in infancy, 2947 TA) and Finduilas (2950 - 2987) who married Denethor II, Steward of Gondor. Imrahil himself is listed as being born in 2955 and dies in FA 34.
This chart gave me some new information: for those who follow the Faramir - Eowyn saga, they had at least one child, a male, the Second Prince of Ithilien, Elboron. For those who minds also run Hobbitlike toward the remembrance of the small details of family history, "Elboron" the Prince of Ithilien, shared his name with the original version of the son of Dior (Thingol's heir) Elboron who was murdered by the followers of Feanor's son Maidros. In later versions of the Silmarillion, Elboron and "Elbereth," the other son of Dior (yep, "Elbereth once was an Elven boy, not a counter name for the Vala Varda!), become Elladan and Elrohir and escaped being murdered.
The chart disappointed me in that it did not list the wife of Imrahil, but I assume there was some such person as he produced three sons and a single daughter. His heir, Elphir (2987) should have been of "arms-bearing" age at the time of the Seige of Gondor, although I do not recall any explanation of his whereabouts during that last conflict. Sons Erchirion (b. 2990) and Amrothos (2994) seem also to have "escaped" the draft... Another bit of interesting news, this chart links King Eomer of Rohan with the daughter of Imrahil, Lothiriel (b. 2999). Eomer's heir, Elfwine the Fair, 19th king of Rohan, was indeed well named as he would have inherited a smidgeon of Elvish blood from his mother.
An earlier version of LotR's Appendix A, tells Eomer's fate in quite a different fashion, allying him to "Morwen, daughter of Hurin of Gondor. This is Hurin of the Keys, who was in command of Minas Tirith when the host of the West rode to the Black Gate (RK p. 237)." (HoMe XII, p. 271)
The explanatory note that JRRT himself appended to this chart is fairly short so I'll quote it here in full for those who do not have this HoMe volume.
"In the tradition of his house, Angelimir was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador first Lord of Dol Amroth (c Third Age 2004 - 2129). According to the same tradition Galador was the son of Imrazor the Numenorean who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves of Lorien that fled to the coast about T.A. 1980, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazor harboured Mithrellas, and took her to wife. But when she barre him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night, and he saw her no more. But, though Mithrellas was of the lesser Silvan race (and not the High Elves or the Grey) it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lord's of Dol Amroth were noble by blood, as they were fair in face and mind."
(HoMe XII - p. 221)
Christopher Tolkien notes that this Tale appeared later in the "Unfinished Tales" volume, p. 248, "with the unaccountable error of Angelimar for Anglimir..."
For those who follow such things, Christopher thinks that this HoMe XII version of the Imrahil Tale pre-dates the "C" manuscript version (found in Unfinished Tales). I believe this would place the Dol Amroth material fairly late in the sequence of revisions, but still before 1954, when the LotR was going through its immediate pre-publication revision. The HoMe XII version concerning the House of Dol Amroth also predates the apparently aborted story line that temporarily presented the Elflord Amroth as the brother of Celeborn. (see HoMe XII: p. 222; and "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn," Unfinished Tales).
Chiefly, for me, the information that mixing between Elves and Men was more widespread than just between the Three "cannonical" weddings of Beren-Tinuviel, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen, opened up new vistas. How many other mixtures occurred, un-recorded and un-celebrated because they featured Avari Elves of no high distinction, and common members of Mankind?
Opps! FOUR cannonical marriages -- left out Earendil and Elfwing!
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