Wk2 Bk5 Ch2: The Stone of Erech

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 3/24/2003 10:17 PM

The picture was lost--it was a picture of Isildur by Marta Aquado

Bk 5, Ch 2, DISCUSSION: The Stone of Erech

Now we come to what I consider to be the most interesting theme on oath taking. Years ago under the command of Isildur, a host of men swears allegiance to their Lord, renounce that oath and are now given the opportunity of renewing it. Why did they make the oath in the first place and why did they renounce it? Now after centuries of walking the paths of the Dead, why are they willing to renew that oath before the stone of Erech? Have they been wandering all these years waiting for the heir of Isildur to appear and redeem them? How do they recognize Elessar, Isildur’s heir? How do they know that redemption is at hand? And what will be their reward?

[Stormrider]

From: LindaS Sent: 4/6/2003 3:27 PM
The oathbreakers were men who at first pledged their support to Isildur in the war against Sauron, then turned to Sauron.

Isildur cursed them to an unrestful death until they fulfilled their oath and supported his heir, Aragorn.

Aragorn comes to the Stone of Erech, commands them to obey him, and unfurls the standard that Arwen has made for him.

For me, this section of LOTR lacks convincing drama. Aragorn seems to risk nothing when he speaks to the dead, they follow him immediately, there seems to be no challenge to his authority, no tension. The end seems a forgone conclusion.

Do you agree or disagree? Linda

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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 4/11/2003 3:54 PM
I disagree. Does no one but me sympathize with Gimili's obvious terror? His is the only mind we enter during the traversing of the Paths of the Dead: but I cannot believe that the Dunedain rangers were not pissing their pants. Aragorn is fatalistic: he only does what he must and will not sweat the outcome: if he dies, oh well, at least he did all that he was called upon to do. That is why he feels little evident worry over his decision to take the Paths. Legolas, being incapable of death, does not understand it and therefore is not concerned with the shades of dead men. They have zero power over elves. And as for this being a foregone outcome - that the dead would follow Isildur's heir - perhaps it is, Aragon being who he is: but the first time you read this, it is so bizarre, so unexpected, that only after the whole thing plays out and gives the West a victory, does the reader begin to question whether or not another outcome was even possible: and comes to the obvious conclusion (Aragorn being who he is) that nothing else could have happened. So we are judging the episode with 20/20 hindsight, interpreting our feelings for it based on knowing the outcome. Didn't anyone else besides me find themselves confused and out of my depth with this Paths of the Dead thing? I thought the suspense was of a different order: WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT? Not, I wonder if Aragorn and company are going to perish by doing this?

Few have commented, btw, on the weirdness of a king of "Light" being able to command an army of the undead in battle against the forces of evil: talk about a turning of usual expectations upside down! I know of no other tale to reproduce such an alliance: the undead are ALWAYS fighting on the side of the bad guys. (You can't count the zombie (I forget his name now) in the Xanth novels; nor the Hydra's teeth skellies in (the movie) "Jason and the Argonauts": these are aberrations: the zombie because his undead status is part of his "talent" and the children of the Hydra's teeth because anybody could have commanded them if he knew what to do: the king of Colchis was hardly a necromancer; he just knew what the teeth could do and called upon the goddess to do her thing. In ALL popular fantasy - from Dracula to now - the undead are universally the weapon of evil magic.)

MtM

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From: LindaS Sent: 4/11/2003 9:14 PM
Hi, MTM - I agree that Tolkien sets us up to expect a dramatic outcome by speaking again and again about how fearful the Paths of the Dead are going to be - it's a fine setup. The problem comes when there is no dramatic payoff when we finally meet the Dead, IMO. You are right also, usually the dead are the enemy of the good, and we would not expect the King of Light to be able to command them, so why is it so easy? I might at least like a tense moment, maybe like --

Dead: Halt, who goes there?

Aragorn: It's me, the returning King.

Dead: Oh, yeah? Prove it before we kill all of you, send you screaming mindless into the wildness, or take away your lunch money. We haven't made up our little dead heads yet. Anyway, we're going to start with the scared dwarf. (And BTW, Elf, you ain't so tough! We know you lost it when you caught sight of that Balrog. Trust us, we're worse!)

Aragorn: Wait, have you seen my banner?

Dead: Hey, cool. Okay, WannabeKing, what can we do you?

Well, obviously, I'm no Tolkien.

The only reasonable view I can think of is that the only thing this party is overcoming is their own fear, but even that is not supported by the action or the outcome.

But I appreciate you comments. Linda

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From: Stormridr Sent: 4/13/2003 10:30 PM
I do not think that the "dead" are really likely to kill anyone. They have been condemned to this life of "limbo" because of Isildur's curse on them. And like most ghosts and apparitions, they ooze an aura of fright to those who are living.

Why is that? Perhaps it is because the living feel the mystery of the their plight, the living do not know what the dead did in their lives to put them in the situation, and the fear that the dead are going to "haunt" the living to "get even" for their situation.

Isildur was counting on their help against Sauron. They must have felt that Sauron was the stronger force and more likely to win the war, so they sided with the one who they thought would be the winner. Of course, Sauron was defeated (for a time anyway) and now they had to deal with Isildur who was not very happy with them.

So they were cursed and unable to be at peace until they made amends. I think the dead were very tickled pink to see Aragorn, the heir of Isildur, arrive to lead them on to fulfil their oath. Once they had done that, they could be in peace.

But still, I think being dead and on the ghostly side, they just emitted that terror that apparitions do and everyone was terrified by them, Gimli, the Dúnedain, and Aragorn. (They all knew that the dead would follow Aragon, but the eerie "otherworldly" feelings were still there for all of the living who entered into the Paths of the Dead.) Legolas may even have felt some scary vibes off of the dead, too. He may not have acted afraid, since he himself did not have to fear death, but he must have felt something and that is why he was pretty quiet during the trip through the Paths of the Dead.