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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:41:22 GMT -6
From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 3/24/2003 10:36 PM
The picture was lost--it was a picture entitled "Oathbreakers" by Cor Blok
Book 5, Chapter 3, DISCUSSION: Rites of Passage and Rebirth
When I read this chapter, I was reminded of many similarities between Gandalf and Aragorn and the challenges they faced. I think of Gandalf’s entanglement with the Balrog and Aragorn’s ordeal with the Dead.
Do you see any similarities between these two events? Or do you consider other challenges? Could these be interpreted as rites of passage?
How do these characters confront their fears, how do they move through them, and what are the results? Could we define these as rebirths?
You may want to consider what we know so far of these two. There is much more to discover about Aragorn and Gandalf so, I would ask that you not go beyond Chapter 2, but please feel free to cite any previous events.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:45:47 GMT -6
From: Iarwain Ben-adar Sent: 3/30/2003 12:53 AM
I borrowed these words from another post to point out indeed Aragorn still doubt as to his abilities. I think this moment is key to understanding a Re-birth theme within the Lord of the Rings as a whole. Gandalfs doubt, his rebirth, Frodo's doubt, his rebirth, even Sam has such a moment. The doubt and distrust betwen Gimli and Legolas reborn into frienship. Boromir his moment of weakness, reborn into the supreme sacrifice of his life. In each of these examples there is at first doubt, then mayhem, or trauma, then acceptance, and the enpowerment follows. From my readings I have enjoyed the thought that so many (Tolkien Characters anyway) would take the more difficult path for the better good.
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From: sparrow Sent: 4/5/2003 12:43 PM
Aragon's venturing into the paths of the dead does seem to be a rite of passage. Being able to command the oathbreakers is one of the tests Aragorn must pass to prove that he is the King upon whose return Gondor has been waiting. It is not clear to me whether Aragorn was thinking of this specifically; the need that drove home was the need to arrive at his destination as quickly as possible. When I think of his attitude towards entering the Paths of the Dead I think not so much of doubt but of courage. It was realistic to think he might not succeed. Perhaps even the rightful king could fail to emerge unscathed at the end. Yet any other way would be futile, as it would take too much time. So Aragorn bravely entered the only path that gave him a chance of arriving in time to do something.
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From: LindaS Sent: 4/6/2003 3:13 PM
Even after several readings, I am uncertain as to the precise nature of Aragorn's reluctance to take the Paths of the Dead. He certainly shows great reluctance at first, but we know that the Isildur's heir can command the dead, and Aragorn is certainly Isildur's heir and Aragorn knows this.
What is Aragorn risking? How can he fail at this, what would be the nature of such a failure?
Linda
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 4/6/2003 9:06 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the statement that Isildur's heir can command the dead. Since Isildur put was the one who originally put the curse on the oath breakers, Aragorn can release them from the curse -- if they chose to fight against Sauron, thus fulfilling their oath. I think the real question was whether they would accept the opportunity to fight against Sauron or just kill Aragorn and company.
-- Rusco
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From: LindaS Sent: 4/6/2003 9:14 PM
Rusco, what makes you think that the Dead would kill Aragorn and company?
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 4/6/2003 9:22 PM
It certainly seems that the men of Rohan viewed that as the most probable outcome. Apparently, nobody had successfully travelled those paths since the dead took up residence. Who know if the dead would kill first and ask questions later? What if they were so full of hate for Isildur that they would immediately kill his heir? What if they were no longer rational? It seems like Aragorn and company were taking a big risk-- but what other choice did they have?
-- Rusco
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From: LindaS Sent: 4/7/2003 12:32 AM
However, from the moment the Grey Company enters the Paths of the Dead, all the Dead do is follow them. No one dies, no one is threatened. If the Dead are such a threat, what prevents the attack that everyone expects?
What is being risked?
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From: LindaS Sent: 4/7/2003 1:04 AM
I just wish to add that it is difficult for the reader to gauge the danger of taking the Paths of the Dead by the views of the people of Rohan.
As Tolkien tells us, the people of Rohan, while a good people, were not as advanced as those of other races of men, they had no education, learning or written records. What history they had were in an oral tradition. Their fear of the Dead seems little different from their fear of the Elves of Lorien - a fear based on lack of knowledge.
However, whatever danger these Dead were, it never seemed that Aragorn and Company were in any danger other than fear. Dramatically, I do not think this section of LOTR works well.
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 4/7/2003 5:56 AM
Linda S,
Nice point, fear and terror are the deads only weapons. I need to verify this point, but I'll go out on a limb and point out that none of the dead actually touched any one. The Corsars fled and jumped from there ships in terror of the dead, not that they were physcally attacked. Same with "Baldor". They found his skeleton up against a wall, no obvious mention of wounds, but an implication which he died of fear. So I do agree Linda, it is hard for me to see these sort of reactions to phantoms. I work in a hospital, sometimes I have to do morgue duty "alone" and I've noted strange things occur now and again.Shadows, electronics turning on, or off, strange noises, but I've never had the sense of fear. I the Paths of the Dead would work better on an older and more superstitious culture. But then again, there are those at my hospital which won't step foot in the morgue no matter when, and they still can't believe I go down there alone. Iarwain
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From: LindaS Sent: 4/7/2003 9:50 AM
Iarwain, I think you are right about the Dead's main weapon being fear. Good point about the finding of Baldor.
It doesn't seem that the Dead are even trying to deliberately trying to frighten anyone - it seems because they are dead, they can't help it. And even if it is their weapon, it wouldn't work on all the company. Legolas says he does not fear the Dead, although he certainly shown great fear of other things (the Balrog). So even this weapon would not work against everyone.
Again, can Aragorn fail to enlist the Dead's help? And if he does fail, what are the consequences? Linda
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 4/7/2003 10:42 AM
I agree with everyone's comments about The Dead's main weapon being fear and that they never physically attacked anyone. However, it wasn't until I read the rest of the book that I clearly understood this. I'm not at all sure that Aragon and Company had this information at the beginning of their journey.
Clearly, Aragorn is familiar with the story of Isildur and the Oath Breakers. However, if he was aware that there was no danger of physical harm or death, then he failed to communicate that to the rest of the company. Also, even without the danger of physical attack, it is clear that they could share the same fate as Baldor. I believe that one of the reasons Aragorn declares his intentions to The Dead is to prevent them from "attacking" before he has the chance to present his proposal.
I do agree, Linda, that once the dead started following Aragorn and Company, the suspense level dropped. Up until that point, it was not clear how they would respone to Aragorn's summons. There does seem to be some urgency in getting to the stone before midnight, but there are never any consequences given for failure.
-- Rusco
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