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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:47:53 GMT -6
From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 3/24/2003 11:13 PM
The picture was lost--it was a picture entitled "Galadriel" by John Howe
Bk 5, Ch 2, DISCUSSION: The Source of the Summons sent to the House of Elrond
When Halbarad finally catches up with Aragorn, he announces,
From whence came this summons?
Speculation arises among members of the entourage. A few agree that it must have been Galadriel. If, indeed, it was the Lady of the Wood, how could she know that Aragorn was in need of his brethren? And how, do you think, the message was sent? Could the summons have come from another source? What are your thoughts on this?
And why was the summons answered so swiftly by his kindred, the Dunadain of the North, and by Elladan and Elrohir, sons of Elrond? They surely had needs and errands of their own. Yet, they dropped whatever they were doing and hastened to Aragorn’s side.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:50:44 GMT -6
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 4/3/2003 12:51 PM
I think that Galadriel could have sent the summons, because didn't she have the gift of foresight? Maybe she had seen something in her mirror. How she did it, I cannot tell. I do have this image of some kind of telepathic communication, but that is probably influenced by the movies (confusing: sometimes I don't remember if something comes from the book or the movie)? Or, as the Elves are wisest of all beings, is it possible that they share some bigger, coordinate mind?
If she has not sent it.... Aragorn did admit that he had thought about his kindred a lot, and that he had indeed wished for their aid many times. You never know, if his wish was strong enough, maybe some of it 'passed through'.
That the Dunédain are swift to respond, is only logic, because he is their chieftain. And Sauron's evil is a matter for all the Races, it is the most important thing to do at that time, because if he wins, there will be nothing left. So I guess that other errands could have been put at hold.
Alaere
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 4/3/2003 1:06 PM
It would make sense if the summons came from Galadriel. From the fellowships first meeting with Galadriel, it seems she has the ability to look into the depths of one's soul. Maybe, that is how she would have known that Aragorn needed his "brethren" during this difficult time.
-- Rusco
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From: Colleen Sent: 4/3/2003 1:21 PM
Alare,
You are not mistaken. A passage in ROTK (Book IV, Chapter IV: Many Partings) descibes Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn and Gandalf communicating without speaking.
"Often, long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep, they [Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf & Elrond] would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, at it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro."
I don't know if they could do this long-distance. But I believe this passage is where PJ got the idea for the movie telepathy.
Colleen
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From: jerseyshore Sent: 4/3/2003 3:06 PM
There seems to be a feeling all the way through TT and into ROTK that someone or something is looking after the fellowship from afar. I've commented on this several times in my discussions of Sam's character. Just when things look bleak, the characters see a star, or use a gift from the Elves, or just feel a lightening of their spirits, a sense of hope, that enables them to go on with their quest. Whether it is the Elves who are acting as "Guardian Angels" or an even higher power, I think something is guiding the events to a conclusion that will allow good to triumph. At this point in time, Aragorn needs the support of his fellow Dunedain, and something has provided the summons of their help.
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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 4/3/2003 4:26 PM
Tolkien said ("Letters" p 252):
He is referring, of course, to God. It was Ilúvatar's intervention (not in a perceivable way) that affected the outcome. By allowing for God's inspiration (revelation) to individuals, all of these "chance meetings" become perfectly explainable. As to the mechanics: I think it was Elrond who got in touch with the Dúnedain: he was in possession of the knowledge and the geographical position to do so: because no matter how well these elves and Maiar can communicate by mind alone, someone would have to have physically taken the message (of Aragorn's need) to his kinsmen: Elrond was close by.
MtM
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 4/3/2003 10:01 PM
I like what jerseyshore posted. In TTT PJ has the Elves come help out at Helm's Deep but we all know that in the books they don't. So through out the story the only Elf that seems to be helping out is Legolas. You kind of get the feeling if Sauron is trying to take over ALL of ME why is everyone but the Elves fighting him? But you need to look deeper into the story and see that the other Elves are helping (Galadriel sending telepathic messages or sending her gifts along knowing they would be very useful)!
P.S.
I have not finished reading ROTK (I did several years ago and don't remember the ending) so I am saying this not knowing if there is a big battle and the Elves do come help. I do know that there will be a big battle in Gondor but I don't remember how it all goes down! Hahaha
Desi
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 4/3/2003 10:04 PM
To go along with MTM, if we read into it we can also possibly sense that maybe Elrond could have sent the message. This too would have shown the Elves helping out more to defeat Sauron!
Desi
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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 4/4/2003 1:55 AM
What if Galadriel got in touch with Elrond, who warned the Dúnedain at his turn? But don't all the Elves have the gift of foresight? Well, than it is either Galadriel or Elrond I guess. That could also explain why his sons are there, he could have sent them along, to help. That would be another addition to Desi's theory: two new Elves helping to overcome evil.
Alaere
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From: DaleAnn Sent: 4/4/2003 6:57 AM
I have other thoughts about the summons.
I believe Arwen told the Dunedain of Aragorn's need. Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, about midway through "...Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard..." This passage seems clear to me. It does not say that she thought of him, but specifically that she watched over him. To watch over someone,one must have some kind of contact. This is why the Dunedain thought they had been actually summond by Aragorn. I also, think Tolkien wanted us to connect the "watching over him comment" with the Standard that Halbarad, one of the Dunedain, bore. By putting these things together in the Appendix, Tolkien then also puts them together in the chapter. By the way, I believe that Arwen gave the standard to Halbarad herself. Otherwise one of her brothers would have carried it.
The only question that remains for me is how and where did the meeting between the Dunedain and those of the House of Elrond take place? I fancy that Arwen, after hastily explaining everything to her father and brothers, rode off to find the Dunedain herself. Elrond sent her brothers after her with the message he wanted to give to Aragorn. Arwen found Halbarad and gave him the Standard, her message and possibly the horse Roheryn (which is Sindarin for Horse of the Lady), if he was stabled at Rivendell. Then Elrohir and Elladan gave their messages. Because of the haste that was needed, I do not believe that one of the Elves met a Dunedain, collected themn and brought them to Rivendell. I really think that Arwen and her brothers rode off to meet with them.
So why do Gimli and Legolas speculate that it was Gandalf or Galadriel and don't even mention Arwen? Aragorn and Arwen were extremely discreet in Rivendell. But, Galadriel did have foresight either through her mirror or on her own, and through Gandalf gave warning that these things would come to pass.
I have more to say on this but it will have to wait for another post. --DA
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:53:50 GMT -6
From: DaleAnn Sent: 4/4/2003 8:00 AM
Part II of DA's thoughts on the Source of the Summons:
After thinking all this through, I wondered if Tolkien left any clues in The History of Middle Earth Series.
I have known for a long time that Arwen was a very late addition to the cast of Characters. At the first, second, third, probably fourth, etc...rewriting of this chapter, Arwen had not been "invented" yet. When Tolkien did write her in later, he did so very subtly. The conversation between Gimli and Legolas had already been written.
I looked in Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth, which tells of the writing of the Appendices. And in there I found proof that at some point Tolkien thought to give Arwen a greater role in this section of the chapter Passing of the Grey Company, even if it was placed in the Appendix. "[The banner] she sent to him by the hands of his kinfolk....and they delivered to Aragorn the standard of Arwen and her message; for she bade him to look to the peril from the sea, and to take the Paths of the Dead."
(Bold italics my emphasis).
--DA (who is wondering if she can stretch this out to three parts.)
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From: Redha Sent: 4/4/2003 11:02 AM
Cheers, Dale Ann!
Please whatever more you find, every little morsel and stray fact and silly thought, I at least want to know. Arwen may have been a later addition, but certainly a great one. Tokien knew her presence elevated the plane of LOTR by bringing in a wonderful parallel with Luthien and Beren. In the story Arwen may seem remote, but in the history neither princess is a remote love object, each is a true lady of the sort Tolkien himself could respect.
Redha
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From: Merlin the mad (Original Message) Sent: 4/4/2003 8:20 AM
This is NOT a spoiler for those reading the Trilogy for the first time - or for those who have forgotten how it ends (in detail)
The reason why PJ put in the elves at Helm's Deep is because it reflected how their race was heavily involved in the fighting during the war of the Ring, without having to go there and show the movie audience that they are in fact too busy to help anyone: in passing comments in TROTK (only alluded to in the book and not given any detailed narrative: PJ would have had to make up everything if he had tried to put elves fighting in Lórien into the movie), we learn later that Sauron in fact invades the whole vale of the Anduin, and that everyone - men, elves and dwarves - is involved in a huge defensive war that will be, of course, hopeless if the Ring is not destroyed. By showing elves at Helm's Deep it simplifies the plot for the movie and gives the elves their due.
MtM
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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 4/4/2003 4:13 PM
This morning I tried (for the first time) to use the reply feature from my email to TR: but my post didn't show up. I see that Annie got it: so I presume that as the starter of this thread she gets any emails to this MSN group thread. I think that is a stupid setup and will not use it again. (Thanks Annie for putting my post here.)
I too enjoy Dale Ann's info: please keep it up when you have these nice tidbits to add.
As for Arwen being a Lúthien type character; this is totally in keeping with Tolkien's approach, tying his entire mythology together. Arwen and Luthien are almost like twins in appearance and character, many thousands of years apart. In the middle (and catalyst to the both of them) is Tolkien's wife, Edith Bratt, whom he called "my Lúthien." Her coloring and eyes were as these two elvish ladies when she was young.
MtM
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From: AnnieLT Sent: 4/4/2003 5:02 PM
Hi MTM: Actually it did show up but on General Board. I thought, now how did that get here? Now, I know. Mystery solved. So I brought it home. Was going to leave you a message on General but since you have found your lost post, I will reply here. Maybe someone who has reply feature might be able to give you a few hints. I have one but never use it. Scares me, because I never know if it's going where it's intended to go. lol . Thanks for your insights.This has become a very intriguing thread, hasn't it?
Annie
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 4/5/2003 4:06 AM
Nice find DaleAnn!
I found your quote on page 267 of TPoMe, which is touched upon in brief in the Appendices of RotK Appendix A page 342 (Redbook). Now here is the bad part.
In RotK The Passing of the Grey Company page 55 and 56
In questioning him Elrohir replys to Aragorn:
So it appears this was Elronds meesage and not Arwens, but she indeed sent a message too:
After questioning Elrohir about the black cloth bundle he bore, Aragorn learns that it is a standard which Arwen wrought in secret, and was long in the making.
So great find DA, and according to TPoMe, you read it correctly, it states Arwen was responsible for both messages, but I have always suspect Elrond as the party responsible for the summons and not Arwen. Although I am inclined to agree with the supposition of psi or mental contact between Arwen and Aragorn, so perhaps at her bidding, Elrond offered his help with reminder about the "Paths". It's a difficult debate but I think the answer lies hidden within the tales somewhere.
Such as the oft overlooled answer to the question of how did Galadriel and Celeborn know of the Fellowship's coming? FotR, "The Ring goes South" pg 287 :
Lothlorien is the only place between the Misty Mountains(Hithaeglir) and the The Great River(Anduin), so even though it was not known who the Fellewship would include at that point, it would be known the Ring was in Rivendell(Imladris) and would (due to distance and conflicts) have to pass through Lothlorien.
I came upon this jewel verifing your fine research DA, and looking for "who" did the summons originate from. I suspect there is another overlooked qoute like the above posted, that at least implys if the summons came from Arwen, or Elrond. But I think we can at least safely narrow the feild down to only them.
So many little details and jewels to be discovered is one of my main loves of Tolkien. This however may be another Tolkien oversight we are uncovering here, and I look forward to any other data you encounter DA, you are indeed TR's own brilliant and incredable human "Google" to be sure!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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