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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:55:57 GMT -6
From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 3/24/2003 10:59 PM
Bk. 5, Ch 2, Aragorn’s Decision
In response to Elrond’s words that he remember the Paths of the Dead, Aragorn answers, Why would Aragorn respond in this way? What are his impressions of this Path? How long does it take Aragorn to consider the situation? Is his choice determined wholly on fulfilling a prophecy or does he consider other matters? Do you think this was a difficult choice? Why or why not? At what point does he actually make the decision? And what is the great need that persuades Aragorn? What do you think would happen if he had decided not to take the Paths of the Dead and continued on with Theoden?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 22:59:33 GMT -6
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/26/2003 1:12 PM
Annie et all,
I love this question, but to do it justice (as I think all have our own views on this) I have to insert an obvious known opinion of what is going on within Aragon's head by using Peter Jackson's story to contrast with.
Within the film version we are shown an Aragorn who is in doubt as to his ability, or even desire to be whom he is destined to be.
Within the book I feel this doubt is somewhat more subtle and this and the Orthanc Stone are the key moments of Aragonr finally gaining the self confidence and indeed desire to recieve his destiny.
During the early days of the Fellowship Aragorn was more than willing to leave the burden of leadership up to Gandalf. It is not it until Gandalfs fall that we see any true authority from Aragorn and then he laments his choices at almost every turn. His self doubt being displayed openly amongst those who need a leader, and don't need to see such displays. I think if not for loyalty Gimli and Legolas might desert such a insecure captain.
But at the return of Gandalf, briefly Aragorn is again relieved of command and he willing allows all that is arranged to be ordered by the Wizard. When they seperate however, we now see a new Aragorn, some doubt remains, yes, but there is more resolve, more shouldering of the leadership burden. Perhaps his combat at Helm's deep as forged his heart anew. He laments no longer his choices, and in fact chances the Stone against the advice of the Wizard. In which he is stepping up to the plate, so to speak, and testing his will at last against his enemy. From here he becomes more confident, more kingly, and I believe has truely decided he is deserving of his bloodline.
With the Paths of the Dead the doubt returns for a moment, yet now his resolve is set, his choice was made when he looked into the Stone. Great indeed is his need, and he sees it, he knows time is short, and that path will lead him either to death, or rebirth. Because if he indeed can muster the courage to take this path, survive it, and command the oathbreakers, he will prove to himself beyond doubt, that he is indeed of the line of the Kings. I think at this point the choice was gone, and it was his responsibilty, his nobles obliege or obligation.
Tolkien so masterfully builds the suspence here, by showing all the reactions of the Rohan. We watch as they blanch and pale at his choice, and mourn him as if dead, when hearing of his path. Eówyn's shattered heart, and her kamakazi actions following Aragons leaving. Eómer's bidding him farewell and lamenting his sword being lost because of his choices. Even Theóden believing him lost when he hears of the choice. It is here we have our "Aragorn lost cliffhanger" and no other is needed, as this moment is so taunt with emotional loss at seeing Aragorn throw his life, and that of his companions away. I still after many readings, can still feel the doubt from my first reading within my own heart of his ever returning from such a dark path.
Within the cave Gimli bears our own emotions, and expresses our own fears as the ghastly descriptions of the cave and it's residents have us longing for an end, a light, an escape.
But now, at the end of this path, we are no longer following Aragorn and company, but Elessar. No more is there self doubt from this soul, but unfailing leadership and bold confidence. Such do all in his company who following Aragorn say after thier passing through the Paths. It was the Kings will alone that moved them, horses and men to the daylight beyond.
To remain with Theóden's company would have been to doom them all. Even more quickly as the Dark Lord, knowing of him now from the Stone, would target him with the Nazgul, and much of his force. Do we not recall Aragorn mentioning traps set by the enemy? The fall of Aragon so public, would signal the fall of the West forever. His taking of the Paths had the bonus of him being hidden from the Eyes sight as well!
Iarwain
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/26/2003 1:19 PM
I think Aragorn considered several things before making the decision to take the Path of the Dead. Elrond's words rank high since he is a well recognized figure in ME. Plus from what Aragorn has seen in the palantir he knows he must move quickly. Also taking the Path of the Dead can prove to himself and others that he is worthy of returning to his place in the throne.
Desi
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/26/2003 9:32 PM
I don't think the purpose of Aragorn taking the Paths of the Dead (POD) has anything to do with any need he may or may not have to prove his claim to the kingship, although it may very well help in that regard.
Remember that Elrond's words are only that if Aragorn needs haste, he should take POD. Aragorn's original response that his need would have to be great to take that path, but after using the palantir, he sees the threat from the South.
I think Aragorn's power as Isildur's heir has to be a given here, otherwise he would not be able to summon the dead and there would be no consideration of taking POD.
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/27/2003 4:03 PM
I posted a comment on the Week 2 Quiz that Annie thought should be discussed in this thread. One of quiz questions was about what prompted Aragorn to make the decision to take the Paths of the Dead. The quiz answer was that it would take too long for Theoden & Co. to get to Dunharrow. I answered that it the fact that he saw the Black Fleet in the Palantir, which made time a critical issue. I think the answer is probably a combination of the two. If Aragorn had not seen the Black Fleet in the Palantir, he might not have felt the need to get there as soon as possible. However, it the Muster of Rohan could have been hastened, then maybe he would have travelled with them. What do you think?
-- Rusco
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/28/2003 7:59 AM
I think that seeing the Black Fleet in the Palantir made him feel the need to get there as soon as possible, which meant taking the POD. I agree that if Theoden and his company would have been able to make it sooner Aragorn would have went with them.
Desi
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/30/2003 12:53 AM
I borrowed these words from another post to point out indeed Aragorn still doubt as to his abilities. I think this moment is key to understanding a Re-birth theme within the Lord of the Rings as a whole. Gandalfs doubt, his rebirth, Frodo's doubt, his rebirth, even Sam has such a moment. The doubt and distrust betwen Gimli and Legolas reborn into frienship. Boromir his moment of weakness, reborn into the supreme sacrifice of his life. In each of these examples there is at first doubt, then mayhem, or trauma, then acceptance, and the enpowerment follows. From my readings I have enjoyed the thought that so many (Tolkien Characters anyway) would take the more difficult path for the better good.
Although I can't say for sure what founded Aragorn's self doubt (Jackson's interpetation seems to point to a Ring lust in the family) I do feel strongly from a book perspective there is indeed some reason Aragorn and other Rangers of the North did not make their claim to Gondor sooner. I mean Aragon is a what the sixteenth Cheiftain of this dispossed gang of the Northern Kingdoms? So somewhere, along the way someone could have made the claim to Gondor.
But again the history of Gondor is a reminder of doubt when we look at the Kin-Strife in TA 1432 to 1448. Here it was doubts about bloodlines that caused a great and nearly disaterous civil war in Gondor. I suspect Aragorn is in fear of this very thing happening again. If we recall the Council of Elrond, Boromir said "such claims would have to be proved." Even with proof, however, some in power (Denethor?) would not relenquish thier postiton willingly. So as not to be a spoiler, I will only say pay attention to "The Houses of the Healing" pg 167 the conversation between Aragorn and Imrahil. I think it proves out nicely the doubt Aragorn faces in these times already full of doubt and fear. As I see it Aragorn methodically faces the challenges and proves to himself and observers without putting forth his claim. He has put the kingdom first that it should survive and will offer his deeds after completion of the task to judged as worthy.
Iarwain
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 23:00:38 GMT -6
From: Stormridr Sent: 3/30/2003 6:41 PM
I am adding Bk5, Ch3 DISCUSSION: Aragorn was Greatly Changed
to this thread rather than start a completely new topic when it seems to be in keeping with what has already been discussed on Annie's thread.
Éowyn tells of Aragorn's decision to take the Paths of the Dead. She says, "Greatly changed he seemed to me since I saw him first in the king's house, grimmer, older. Fey I thought him, and like one whom the Dead call."
Why was Aragorn grimmer and older after making this decision?
Did he fear that he would perish by that route?
What realizations and responsibilities were on his shoulders?
How has he changed in your eyes?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 23:02:30 GMT -6
From: Redha Sent: 4/2/2003 11:51 AM
I think Iarwain makes a good point. And I will refer to the disappearance of Thorongil. As was mentioned in one of the Denethor discussions, this captain threatened the stability of the stewards' rule. Thorongil obviously left for his own reasons. Really it seems the timing was just wrong. And then decades later, there could be no more hesitation.
Why did not some other chieftain make a claim? Remember that there has always been great danger to the heirs of Isildur. They themselves were the object of Sauron's revenge. Which of them would be foolish enough to dare destiny and become the Enemy's target without great cause?
When the time came for Aragorn to reveal himself, he did so with no doubts about himself. Only that others might doubt him. His indecision or doubt has always had everything to do with him being able to fulfill his destiny, not about his bloodline.
When forced to take up leadership of the Fellowship, he did seem to falter in decisions he was not prepared to make. After all, he was suppose to go to Gondor with Boromir, not keep tabs on Frodo or the other hobbits. Even before he was freed of those responsibilities, he tried to do both. In Rohan, using all his allies, he defended the kingdom against the Enemy. As he had done in some way all his life.
Aragorn constantly needs to prove himself to others, those who would follow him, accept him as King. To me, he always wanted to be accepted for himself even more. In the end, what will prove his claim to the crown in the eyes of all others, especially his subjects? Deeds or signs? True leadership or a reforged sword? Even he is worried by that. But, need dictates his actions more and more. He can only hope that there are signs to guide him as well as convince his allies.
He will travel the POD because he can and must. Who would go with him? Not the Rohirrim for sure, so his own people it must be. Hopefully Gimili and Legolas too.
Is he changed by his battle of wills with Sauron? Every battle before has changed him into who he is and, I would think, that this risky encounter most certainly would continue that change. Has he been made grimmer,older or simply more determined to go on despite fatigue?
Redha
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From: AnnieLT Sent: 4/5/2003 7:57 AM
Iarwain: I liked what you said, "at the end of this path, we are no longer following Aragorn and company, but Elessar." It has taken a long time since we first meet Strider to arrive at this transition in Aragorn's story. As readers we are discovering little by little the struggles and doubts that lead this man to his destiny and are richly rewarded by it. Contrasting this to Peter Jackson's film version, I would say that it is because of time constraints that PJ must bring our attention to Aragorn's doubts and struggles so quickly and directly. As a result, I think we are not so intamately engaged in the suspense of Aragorn's emergence as Elessar. Subtlety has its own rewards.
Rusco and Desi: These were my thoughts also that if the Muster of Rohan could have been hastened, Aragorn might have made the decision to travel with Theoden.
LindaS. Agreed. Aragorn's power as the heir of Isildur must be considered. And seeing the threat from the south becomes the great need for haste.
Iarwain and Redha, Thank you for the historical referrences and the theme of doubt. It does seem to run in the family. I would love to read more on this.
Iarwain: I would like to copy a portion of your post referring to Rebirth to the topic, "Rites of Passage and Rebirth" It will work nicely there.
Annie
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