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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 23:07:04 GMT -6
From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 3/24/2003 11:33 PM
The picture was lost--it was a picture entitled "Merry and Théoden" by Arati Subramanyam
Bk. 5, Ch 2, DISCUSSION: Comparing the oaths of Pippin and Merry
In the previous chapter we read that Pippin swore his allegiance to Denethor, Steward of Gondor. And here we see Merry, suddenly filled with love for the old king, kneel and lay his sword upon Theoden's lap. Are there any differences between the two oaths? Is one oath nobler than the other? Do you feel one, or both, were made impulsively? What impelled the hobbits to make these pledges of loyalty? How did Theoden and Denethor receive these oaths of fealty? Which leader would you choose to follow? Why?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 23:08:06 GMT -6
From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/26/2003 1:02 PM
As I said about Pipin's oath it was spur of the moment or impulsive; I also think Merry's oath was impulsive. Merry's may have had more thought since he was wondering about what he could do to not feel like baggage. I think the sentence Merry, suddenly filled with love for the old king, kneel and lay his sword upon Theoden's lap gives one the feeling that his oath is more impulsive than thought out. If I had to chose between Theoden and Denethor I would pledge to Theoden, I think he is more caring.
Desi
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/28/2003 11:41 AM
I think there are some interesting differences and similarities.
I think Merry and Pippin were both starting to feel that they were just along for the ride - not really contributing to the quest. It's interesting to consider that the reason they were feeling like baggage was probably related to how they were regarded by the fellowship. I don't doubt that there was a bond of friendship, but that doesn't necessarily imply respect. They had not made any significant contribution to the quest thus far, but rather required carrying through snow, rescuing from Uruk-hai, and horse rides.
It's also interesting that they both have similar reactions to their treatment by Theoden and Denethor. Pippin reacts to the harsh, condescending tone of Denethor - while Merry reacts to the kind, attentive tone of Theoden. However, I think they both seize this opportunity to take a more active role in the war against Sauron and earn the respect of the others.
-- Rusco
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From: Olórëa (Diana) Sent: 4/2/2003 1:30 PM
Here is just a small thought on Pippin.
Was his ability to handle Denethor's harshness and condescention from all that 'practive' he received from people such as Gandalf? ... "fool of a took.. throw yourself in the next time and save us the trouble" or something along those lines.
I know, it's not deep, but oh well
Diana
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 4/2/2003 6:12 PM
I agree that Pippin was not scared off by Denethor's harshness. That sort of thing never seemed to bother Pip!
Desi
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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 4/3/2003 2:59 AM
I think both oaths are sworn impulsively, for the same reasons, but the circumstances that made them swear the oath, are somewhat different. It is as Rusco puts it: both of them want to be more than luggage. When they were with the Uruk Hai, they started to realize that they had to 'grow up', and be self reliant. These realizations probably accumulate into the oaths. They were also both feeling lonely without the other one. Now, Pippin gets this harsh treatment, and I think he pledges his allegiance to Denethor as some way to prove to the Steward that he has good intentions. It is true that he was not scared, otherwise he wouldn't have done that. Denethor's treatment of Pippin is probably the catalysator for something that was growing in the young Hobbit's mind. It is the same with Merry, though he suddenly feels an overwhelming love for Theoden. This one is probably a bit more impulsive than Pippin's.
Both kings react quite different however: Theoden is more caring, and treats Merry like a new friend; he makes him his shield-bearer, which keeps the Hobbit close to him, and they exchange stories about the Shire and Rohan. With Denethor, I get the impression that the duty is more important: he immediately sends someone to show him around, teach him about the passwords, and he will be put into one of Denethor's company's.
If I would have to choose, I would definitely kneel down for Theoden. As Desi sais, he does indeed seem more caring. Denethor actually seems tired. Both have lost a son, but react to it differently: I think Denethor more has the inclination to let his grief stand between him and his duties, while Theoden mourns too, but in the mean time, does not abandon his people. Theoden actually seems more capable.
Alaere
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