Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 23:54:54 GMT -6
From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 4/6/2003 9:55 PM
The picture was lost--it was entitled "Before the Battle" by Anke-Katrin Eissmann
Wk2, Bk5, Ch 4, DISCUSSION: Gandalf’s thoughts on Future Events
Gandalf it was that last spoke to Faramir ere he rode east. "Do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness,' he said. 'You will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end. Farewell."
Earlier in this chapter Gandalf is concerned when he learns from Faramir that Frodo and Gollum have chosen to go to Cirith Ungol and he wonders why. To Pippin, the wizard says, "Yet my heart guessed that Frodo and Gollum would meet before the end. For good, or for evil. But of Cirith Ungol I will not speak tonight. Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature. But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend. It can be so, sometimes." Gandalf is certainly foreboding here.
Are these utterances predictions of future events? Are they prophecies? Compare the latter premonition to the one spoken in the Shire to Frodo, "And he (Gollum) is bound up with the fate of the ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many . . . " As we have discovered Frodo and Gollum have certainly met and are now traveling companions. How do you explain Gandalf’s foresight? Is it based on some foreknowledge or is it inspired?
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To aid us in answering these questions I am reprinting here Megn’s definition of terms as used in the FOTR study:
Prediction: To make a prediction is to declare in advance what will occur.
Prophecy: A prophecy is an inspired utterance. It may be about future events, or about the present reality. Its source is usually something other than observation, experience, or scientific reasoning. The "inspiration" might be intuition, a dream, a "hunch," or divine revelation.
Some prophecies are predictions, but not all, and not all predictions are prophecies.
Predictions that are prophecies: A prophecy which speaks of the future is a prediction. An example is the dream that Faramir and Boromir have which tells them that if they find Imladris "There shall be counsels taken stronger than Morgul-spells." Its source is inspired, and it tells of something that will happen.
Predictions that are not prophecies: A prediction based on experience is not a prophecy. An example is the statement by the hobbits that Bilbo's perpetual youth and inexhaustible wealth "will have to be paid for. It isn't natural, and trouble will come from it."
Prophecies that are not predictions: A prophecy which speaks an inspired truth about the present reality is not a prediction. An example is the first half of Bilbo's poem "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Also, Lobelia's statement about Frodo -- that he is not a Baggins, but a Brandybuck, and doesn't belong in Hobbiton – might also fit in this category (if you consider her "inspired" at that moment).
In everyday language the two words have become largely synonymous, and the distinction will be blurry for many of the prophetic predictions that we uncover in FOTR. But we can use these working definitions to sharpen our conversation here.
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Are there other such utterances of future events in the Siege of Gondor or in previous chapters? Which ones have you come across and how would you describe them?
(Reminder: I know how hard it is, but please try not to give spoilers. You can refer to any previous chapter, though. Thanks)
The picture was lost--it was entitled "Before the Battle" by Anke-Katrin Eissmann
Wk2, Bk5, Ch 4, DISCUSSION: Gandalf’s thoughts on Future Events
Gandalf it was that last spoke to Faramir ere he rode east. "Do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness,' he said. 'You will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end. Farewell."
Earlier in this chapter Gandalf is concerned when he learns from Faramir that Frodo and Gollum have chosen to go to Cirith Ungol and he wonders why. To Pippin, the wizard says, "Yet my heart guessed that Frodo and Gollum would meet before the end. For good, or for evil. But of Cirith Ungol I will not speak tonight. Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature. But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend. It can be so, sometimes." Gandalf is certainly foreboding here.
Are these utterances predictions of future events? Are they prophecies? Compare the latter premonition to the one spoken in the Shire to Frodo, "And he (Gollum) is bound up with the fate of the ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many . . . " As we have discovered Frodo and Gollum have certainly met and are now traveling companions. How do you explain Gandalf’s foresight? Is it based on some foreknowledge or is it inspired?
--------------------------
To aid us in answering these questions I am reprinting here Megn’s definition of terms as used in the FOTR study:
Prediction: To make a prediction is to declare in advance what will occur.
Prophecy: A prophecy is an inspired utterance. It may be about future events, or about the present reality. Its source is usually something other than observation, experience, or scientific reasoning. The "inspiration" might be intuition, a dream, a "hunch," or divine revelation.
Some prophecies are predictions, but not all, and not all predictions are prophecies.
Predictions that are prophecies: A prophecy which speaks of the future is a prediction. An example is the dream that Faramir and Boromir have which tells them that if they find Imladris "There shall be counsels taken stronger than Morgul-spells." Its source is inspired, and it tells of something that will happen.
Predictions that are not prophecies: A prediction based on experience is not a prophecy. An example is the statement by the hobbits that Bilbo's perpetual youth and inexhaustible wealth "will have to be paid for. It isn't natural, and trouble will come from it."
Prophecies that are not predictions: A prophecy which speaks an inspired truth about the present reality is not a prediction. An example is the first half of Bilbo's poem "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Also, Lobelia's statement about Frodo -- that he is not a Baggins, but a Brandybuck, and doesn't belong in Hobbiton – might also fit in this category (if you consider her "inspired" at that moment).
In everyday language the two words have become largely synonymous, and the distinction will be blurry for many of the prophetic predictions that we uncover in FOTR. But we can use these working definitions to sharpen our conversation here.
-------------------------
Are there other such utterances of future events in the Siege of Gondor or in previous chapters? Which ones have you come across and how would you describe them?
(Reminder: I know how hard it is, but please try not to give spoilers. You can refer to any previous chapter, though. Thanks)