Wk4 Bk5 Ch4: Denethor & Théoden as Leaders

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 4/6/2003 10:40 PM

The pictures were lost--they were entitled "Théoden" and "Denethor" both by Dan Govar

Wk4, Bk 5, CH 4, DISCUSSION: DENETHOR AND THEODEN AS LEADERS

Both Denethor and Theoden have been respected and able leaders descended from a lineage of Leaders; however, in recent times they have been beaten down by the forces of evil. Theoden rallies and leads the Rohirrim to the aid of Gondor. Denethor, as we have seen, sinks deeper into regret and misery and is not capable of leading men into battle. What do you think has transpired to inspire one but disable the other? Gandalf seems to play a role in bringing Theoden out of his stupor. Why was he unable to reach Denethor?

What can you say of Theoden and Denethor’s leadership? What qualities seem important to you in a leader? Do either of these leaders exhibit weaknesses not suitable to a leader? How was Theoden able to overcome his weaknesses and Denethor was not. Are you drawn to one or the other based on these characteristics?

[Stormrider]

From: LindaS Sent: 4/7/2003 12:42 AM
Theodan fairs better than Denethor I think largely because Theodan is able to accept counsel and Denethor, out of pride, refuses counsel. More specifically, that counsel is Gandalf's.

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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 4/8/2003 10:46 AM
I think that accepting counsel did make a difference. Also loosing both sons to this battle has really impacted Denethor!

Desi

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From: LindaS Sent: 4/8/2003 11:49 AM
Desi, good point, losing a son is something else that Theodan and Denethor share. Again, their ways of coping with that loss are different. Theodan, with Gandalf's help, accepts the death of his son and rides forth to save his people, while Denethor sinks further into despair and anger.

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From: Selmo Sent: 4/9/2003 4:48 AM
Despite their similarities, both worn down by war, both losing a son and both under subtle evil influence from Wormtongue & the Palantir, Denethor and Theoden are very different characters.

The culture of Gondor is sophisticated, literate and very aware of its thousands of years of history. Rohan is a relatively new nation, keeping no account of its history except in song. Its people see only immediate need and its pride is in its horses and its skill in arms, not in the achievement of past generations.
In war, the King of Rohan is expected to lead his army; in Gondor, the Steward is expected to direct and control his armies through others, as Denethor's father did employing the young Aragorn (under another name).

Denethor has been raised to be a man of thought and study, Theoden a man of action. Once he is free of Wormtongue's influence, Theoden can, with Gandalf's support, respond to changing circumstances but Denethor, carrying the weight of thousands of years of cultural history, is much less addaptable, much more set in his view of the world and much more resistant to Gandalf's counsel.

Selmo.

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From: LindaS Sent: 4/9/2003 10:06 AM
Tolkien himself was a man of deep scholarship and a reverence for the past. It is not logical that Tolkien's portrayal of Denethor is of someone unable to react appropriately to his circumstances because he carries "the weight of thousands of years of cultural history." Tolkien would have not viewed a great cultural heritage as a burden.

Rather, Tolkien shows us, as in the contrast between Boromir and Faramir, what he thinks of action without reflection and lacking good counsel. Theodan may be the leader of a less accomplished people, but he is intelligent enough to finally recognize good advise when he hears it.

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From: CamelliaD Sent: 4/11/2003 12:17 PM
We must not forget the evil power of the palentir...Denethor has been immersed in Sauren's visions of the future. Propaganda that foretells doom with no hope....he's been brainwashed much more than Theoden ever was with Wormtongue. (although he never seemed to have the charm & warm heart of Theoden) Denathor, like Boramir, thought he was the sole force that could bring victory, if only everyone would listen to him. He never realized that he was being manipulated as a tool of the Dark Lord.

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr Sent: 4/13/2003 11:13 PM
I have always been very puzzled as to how Wormtongue could have slick talked Théoden into trusting him. I know Théoden was deeply saddened by the loss of his son, but I have always been bothered that such a great and mighty King and Leader could be lead into believing all that Wormtongue told him. Wormy must have been a really smooth talker! (I know, I know, he was coached by the silver tongue of Saruman!)

While I know it is really off track from the written work, I think the way PJ portrayed Théoden as having a spell put on him makes Théoden's overall lack of judgement and reliance on Wormtongue seem more plausible. At least it makes me feel better anyway!

Other than his reliance on Wormtongue's counselling, I have really loved Théoden as a character. I liked the way Théoden finally came back to himself and took control, lead his men and fought with them, and was still a friendly and kind man who deeply cared for his people and Merry, who he wanted to protect, and his willingness to come to the aid of Gondor.

From the first time I read the story, I did not like Denethor at all! His distrust of Gandalf, his interrogation of Pippin, his uncaring attitude for Faramir, and his doting on Boromir just rubbed me wrong!

However, now that I have been reading this book for this study, I have come to appreciate Denethor more. I realize now that he does have a great love for Gondor, he cares about its history, its present, and its future. He has remained true to his status as "Steward" and not King by never taking the high throne and ruling as the king.

I can now see why he acts as he does in the up-coming chapters; and although I do not like his actions, I at least understand them better. (I don't want to say too much to spoil any future discussions we have planned!)

But if I was a character in the story, I would much rather follow Théoden than Denethor. (This is not because he is "The father of horse-men" as Ghân describes him even if the horseman does have its appeal to me!) I just like his more "hands on", "down-to-earth" attitude than Denethor's "haughty" and "distrustful" attitude.

Stormrider

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From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/14/2003 6:00 AM
I have a small bit of interesting trivia (to me anyway) that I found the other day on a website that I did not bookmark.
Look at the names Theo-den and Dene-thor. The elements of these names have been switched around. The website noted that this came first from Verlyn Fleiger, noted Tolkien scholar. --DA

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From: Stormrider Sent: 5/14/2003 7:42 AM
Rats! Too bad you did not bookmark that site! Was there any other meaning or symbolism that Verlyn Fleiger gave to this arrangement of their names?

Stormrider

[Stormrider]

From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/14/2003 9:38 AM
Actually it was an online journal (blog) of someone who took Flieger's class years ago. The person casually mentioned this name "thingy" without giving any more info and without any other insights of other things..... --DA

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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 5/14/2003 9:45 AM
Stormrider,

I believe this is the Journal Entry DA was speaking of. Does anyone know whether or not these topics are covered in the new revised version of Splintered Light by Dr. Flieger.

-- Rusco

Date: 2003-02-10 12:01
Subject: outgeeked
Security: Public
Music: Joan Jett (Tank Girl Soundtrack) - Let's Do It.

I took Dr. Flieger's class in 94ish. It honestly never occurred to me,
a) that times have changed and although she thought I was nuts setting up an email list for the class then, she'd have a decent web presence now,
b) that there are probably at least a few other LotR fangirls around who took "the Tolkien class,"
c) that, being as she's a really smart lady who really understands how to read LotR, she might be a well known Tolkien scholar with several books to her name (actually, until recently I didn't realize that there was formalized Tolkien scholarship).

Until that class, I never got
- The whole Dene-thor / Theo-den business.
- Smaug - Smeagol - smegan - sleithan.
- Gollum must. Frodo will.
- Why Frodo is an orphan from across the Brandywine.
- Why the ring-bearer is named Frodo.
- Why Pippin drops a stone down a well.
- The tower from which you can see the sea.
- matdthma - mathum - mathom - precious.
- Eowyn's "thee," vs Aragorn's "you."

Why does she get to be so smart, and I don't? Also, why could I never get through a single class without making myself look like a total idiot in front of her (and the cute red-headed boy and the cute indian girl with the strange piercing)?

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From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/14/2003 11:34 AM

Rusco, the Dene-thor and Theo-den thing is not discussed in Splintered Light or Question of Time.

Thanks for finding the journal entry. I did a search but it didn't come up.

The rest of your question should go on General Tolkien....so I'm going to copy it to there, ok?
--DA