Wk5 Bk5 Ch5: Théoden--King & Leader

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 4/13/2003 9:34 PM

Théoden
Copyright Timothy Hylde. All Rights Reserved

Théoden leads his Riders on toward Gondor and toward a battle that is uncertain. He takes the offer of the Wild Man to get safely and quietly closer to their goal. He gives an encouraging speech to his Riders which stirs them, plans his strategy by dividing his éoreds, and puts great men in charge of each to lead them.

When they reach the outer fields and the fires of the siege, the King and his host gaze on the stricken City. Théoden seems to shrink and quail believing that it may have been too late.

Has Théoden become once again the King and Leader that he once was before the influence of Grimma Wormtongue?

Has Wormtongue's slippery words of deception and his grip on Théoden been completely shaken?

Or does Wormtongue's influence begin to return as we see Théoden shrink and quail at the site of Minas Tirith in flames?

Or was there a stronger and darker power discouraging Théoden from leading his forces into battle?

Did you fear that Théoden was about to give up hope as he looked on the agony of the City?

However, the King suddenly springs forward crying in a loud voice for his men to ride to Gondor. Blowing his great horn upon Snowmane he leads his knights into battle with his banner blowing in the wind behind him. And a glorious and fearsome leader he becomes.

Now Tolkien compares Théoden to Oromë the Great. Do you see any similarities between the two?

[Stormrider]

From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 4/15/2003 10:22 AM
I think that Theoden remembers how it was under Wormtongue's influence and that makes him remember to be a strong leader! Maybe even better than he was before the influence...

I don't care how strong and brave you are, seeing a great structure like Minas Tirith on fire is going to make you stop and think.

When Theoden cried 'Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!' I felt so much emotion (in my self and Theoden)! The whole story build up to this part really pays off here!

Desi

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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 4/17/2003 3:49 PM
After he got cured from Grima's influence, we see that Théoden is actually a very capable king (at least, I think so). He is kind, caring, encourages his men, and seems wise to me. When he shrunk upon seeing Minas Tirith burn, for a moment I thought he was going to give up hope, because it did look very bad. It was probably hard enough to make out anything clear from a distance, for all he knew it could have been too late. But anyway, I was very releived when he sprang forward after all.

Alaere

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieLT Sent: 4/17/2003 5:49 PM
I am adding the Chapter 6 Discussion: Theoden's Last Battle to Stormrider's discussion concerning The King of Rohan.

Wk 5, Bk 5, Ch 6, DISCUSSION: Theoden’s Last Battle

When I read the beginning of this chapter, I thought as Merry did later, "Where is Gandalf?" He seemed to be all over the field coming to the aid of others. Where was he when the King fell? (My question to self, you may want to discuss this in the next chapter.)

"Then Theoden was aware of him (Chieftain of the Haradrim) and would not wait for his onset but crying to Snowmane he charged headlong to greet him." He felt great glory when he slew their chieftain but a black dart struck Snowmane and the King fell beneath him.

Could have Theoden’s death been avoided? How? Was the King’s charge against the Haradrim fool hardy or suicidal or was it the mark of Brave heart?

Consider Theoden’s last words to Merry, "My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset." Compare these words to the last words Denethor spoke to Pippin in Chapter 4, The Siege of Gondor. Did you notice that he used almost the same expression? "My life is broken." He then orders that his servants be sent to prepare a funeral pyre for himself and his son. How do you interpret these two phrases spoken by King and Steward?

Theoden forgives Merry for disobeying orders and blesses him. He then calls for Eomer to whom he passes the banner, "Hail, King of the Mark . . . Ride now to victory . . . " What do these words tell us of Theoden as a man and as King?

Compare the old broken man who was under the influence of Wormtongue with the man on the Pelennor Fields. What changes have occurred ?

[Stormrider]

From: Colleen Sent: 4/17/2003 8:58 PM
Theoden's last words: "My body is broken.

Denethor's last words: "My life is broken"

Tolkien chose every word he wrote with care. To me, the differences between these phrases is far more telling than the similarities. Theoden and Denethor both had reason to give up hope after their son's died. Perhaps Theoden had even more reason after being under Wormtounge's thrall (but that's another discussion)

Here we see clearly that Theoden embraced the rest of his life. He 'shook off' Grima's influence and even took Eomer as his heir. On the other hand, Denethor rejected both his life and his other son. To Theoden ONLY his body was broken -- he died while his life was still worth living and in all of Tolkien's works, that seems a noble death. Denethor gave up on life and the living and as a result fell into madness which one could hardly call honorable.

If we were to judge these men based only on their last words -- I think we'd come to the same conclusions as if we judged them based on all we know.

Colleen