Wk5 Bk5 Ch6: Théoden's Bane

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 4/17/2003 5:09 PM

The picture was lost--it was entitled "The Nazgûl Clutches Snowmane" by Roger Garland

Wk 5, Bk 5, Ch 6, DISCUSSION: Theoden's Bane, Snowmane

"And afterward when all was over, men returned and made a fire there and burned the carcase of the beast; but for Snowmane they dug a grave and set a stone upon which was carved in the tongues of Gondor and the Mark:

Faithful servant yet master’s bane

Lightfoot’s foal, swift Snowmane

How was Snowmane the bane of Theoden? Even Merry mentions this. If this is so, why erect a stone in his honor? Why would they go through the trouble of digging a grave and marking it with this epitaph?

Why do you think the Rohirrim honor their horses in this way? Can you think of other examples in the LOTR, thus far, where such bonds exist between rider and steed? This stands in stark contrast to the images we receive of the black riders. What, if anything, can we surmise about a character when we analyze the relationship between master and the horse that bears him? Is it nothing more than admiration for a magnificent animal that travels swiftly or is it something deeper than this? One thing you might keep in mind as you pondert this, is that Snowmaine is a Meara. Why do the Rohirrim hold the Mearas in such high esteem. (You may want to review, Wk 4, Bk 5, Ch 4, DISCUSSION: Shadowfax and the Mearas, or you could peruse the Appendices, A, II, The House of Eorl.}

[Stormrider]

From: sparrow Sent: 4/21/2003 9:49 AM
For the Rohirrim, their horses were almost an extension of their bodies. Horses were an essential part of their life. I think American Indians were like this, too? Snowmane was Theoden's bane because he rolled over on him and killed him. Wasn't there another incident, too? Does anyone remember? (I am not taking the time to look this up right now because I am supposed to be working.) However, Snowmane was still honored because he was not accountable for the harm he did to Theoden. As a beast, though a special one, and not a sentient, intelligent being, Snowmane could and would not have harmed his master deliberately or even carelessly. Limited only by the fact that he was an animal, Snowmane served his master excellently.

* * *

From: sparrow Sent: 4/22/2003 1:43 PM
So I happily post away, from work, without researching, and then I learn there is a scholarly discussion going on about the Mearas and now I think I look ignorant. After reading the thread The Race of the Mearas at groups.msn.com/tolkiensring/funandgames.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=17517&LastModified=4675418617003357374&all_topics=1 I conclude that Mearas is a higher level of horse with the ability to understand speech. The ability to understand speech implies a higher level of cognitive functioning, so I may have to concede that Snowmane could have schemed to harm his master. I still say he wouldn't have, because he was loyal to Theoden. That brings us right back to the question, doesn't it?

So, I will say Snowmane had faithfully served his master and only harmed him accidentally when Snowmane fell due to his own injury. Thus, Snowmane is worthy of honor and esteem.

* * *

From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 4/22/2003 8:35 PM
Sparrow,
I like your line train of thought regarding the honor the Rohan bestowed upon their horses. And I too recall some of the Plains Tribes of the Native North American Cultures as having such an esteem for their mounts. But as I mention on the "Mearas Board" I'm not inclined to include Snowmane or Lightfoot among the Mearas even though most every study guide is. Although it states the Mearas only allowed the Kings of Rohan and their sons to mount them; until the time of Shadowfax. It never "states" that all the Kings of Rohan rode only Mearas. I think too many assume this to be fact, and it is no where supported in Tolkiens main works. At least not anything I have come across, maybe DA, Stormy, or Desi might have some insight we have missed?

The other incident I belive you speak of is Felaróf's "killing" of Eorl's father Leod. In reading it straight from Appendix A, it's wording seems to imply some intent to Felaróf's actions, meaning that the horse intended to kill Leod by throwing him. Eorl's hunting of the beast to slay it for revenge, and the horses submission to Eorl as an implied admission of guilt, and an action of atonement to this guilt, all play into my opinion.

The subject of horse vs Meara is still a question that needs some research before I will accept Snowmane and Lightfoot amongst the Mearas. I think in your first post when you use the term "beast" when defending Snowmane as innocent you are on the right track, but I feel the Mearas are more than a beast, and could possess intent and motive in thier actions beyond that of horses.

In all much yet to look at.
Namárië,
Iarwain

* * *

From: KryshaEpona Sent: 4/22/2003 9:19 PM
I sometimes think we make too much of things.

If you look up the definition of "bane" in the dictionary, you find the "Old English" definition to be "killer, slayer" and if Snowmane, in his fall, caused the death of his rider, Theoden King, it would be appropriate he be called "Theoden's Bane" for he did cause the death of his rider.

Snowmane was a fair and noble horse, and to attribute any characteristics to him that would desecrate his memory, to my mind, is entirely without foundation.

Forgive me... I'm only now re-reading LOTR and I perhaps don't have a full and deep understanding as many might have who have spent much time analyzing them. I've only just now caught up with the study and hope to take part!

KryshaEpona

* * *

From: magpie Sent: 4/22/2003 10:18 PM
KryshaEpona,
I was thinking about this just today. I was listening to The Silmarillion audio books and they were using the word bane and it brought me back to this discussion. I thought to myself that it must mean more than a vexation, a plague, a curse... But since I was in the car, I forgot about my musings once I was at the computer. So I'm glad you posted. I've looked it up, also and it can mean a cause of trouble or unhappiness, but it can also mean (as you pointed out) a cause of death. I think this is the proper interpertation for Snowmane. I can't for a minute think that Snowmane was held accountable for Theoden's death other than behaving as any horse could only be expected to behave.

Iarwain, I'm with you on not assuming that Snowmane was of the Mearas just because the Mearas were only ridden by the King of the Mark and his sons. But I have a mathematical mind and have maybe seen too many Venn diagrams.

btw... what's your take on the singular of Mearas. I'm reading that, although the word is never used by Tolkien, it would be Mearh. What do you think?

~Magpie

[Stormrider]

From: Stormrider Sent: 4/23/2003 12:09 AM
After Grond broke the Gate of Gondor, the Lord of the Nazgûl rode in and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.

This statement indicates that there are more of the free horses on the earth; however, Shadowfax is the only one of them that could have endured a confrontation with a Nazgûl. Couldn't Snowmane have been bred of the line of the mearas with common horses and not been as fine an example of the breed as Shadowfax? I'm not saying that all the horses of Rohan were mearas, but Snowmane could have had some of the breed in him, too. I believe Théoden would have ridden a free horse into such a battle.

Whether or not Snowmane was a free horse, the questions is: Did he have enough courage to face the Nazgûl? When Théoden lead the éored against the Southrons suddenly a darkness fell on them. The horses around them reared, screamed and lost their riders as they took off.

But Snowmane wild with terror, stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him.

Snowmane was terrified and pawed the air with his hooves. Would he have continued to hold his ground anyway because Théoden asked him to? We don't really get the chance to find out because the black dart pierced him. I feel that if he had had the chance, he would have done whatever Théoden asked of him despite his fear.

Unfortunately, he caused Théoden's death. The rest of the event that transpired there: Éowyn and Merry destroying the Witchking in defense of Théoden were worthy of a monument. Because Snowmane perished there, it was a memorial and reminder of the great feat that was accomplished. If Théoden had not fallen, the events could have turned out quite differently.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!

BTW, Annie! I hate that picture you posted above! Get off of Snowmane, you naked, winged, fell beast! (Actually, it is a very good picture, but I hates it!)

Stormrider

* * *

From: magpie Sent: 4/23/2003 6:48 AM
Stormrider,
For my part, I will say that I am unwilling to say for fact that Snowmane was Mearas. But I can certainly accept the possibility that he was full or part Mearas. Even if he showed more fear than Shadowfax. Your quote clearly shows that Shadowfax would have had more resilience toward the Shadow than any other steed.

I believe it was Iarwain who quoted from JRRT's letters in the other Mearas discussion. That same quote makes a point I'm quite fond of "I feel it better not to state everything (and indeed it is more realistic, since in chronicles and accounts of 'real' history, many facts that some enquirer would like to know are omitted, and the truth has to be discovered or guessed from such evidence as there is)." (Letter 268) I think Tolkien's work has this intriguing mix of knowable (all the reams of 'history' and details he provided) and unknowable (all the stuff he deliberately or otherwise left a bit vague and unexplained). I think it's what keeps us coming back.

And as to your point that Snowmane's accidental (or otherwise? - I choose to think it accidental) killing of Theoden provided the opportunity for Eowyn and Merry to do their deeds, ahh... nice point. This gets played out over and over in LOTR and I hadn't thought about it in this instance, but I like it.

~Magpie

* * *

From: Storrmrider Sent: 4/23/2003 7:36 AM
Magpie:

I like that quote from the Letters of JRRT, too. It is true that there are some facts that are omitted in history. This technique does work with Tolkien's stories to keep the reader thinking and discussing many topics. Isn't that why we are here?! lol!

I also believe Snowmane was part meara because of the comparison of Théoden and Snowmane to Oromë (and Nahar?) riding into the fray at the end of The Ride of the Rohirrim chapter:

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them..........but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young.

I absolutely believe that it was unintentional on Snowmane's part to kill Théoden! It was fate and Snowmane's body was the tool to bring it about and the dart was the instigator of the course of events that followed.

Stormrider

* * *

From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 4/23/2003 8:48 AM
If I was King and were going into such a battle as this, I would want to make sure I was on the best steed I owned. I would choose one of the Mearas! I will not say that Snowmane was full or the best of the Mearas but I believe that some Mearas breeding was in him! Does it say anywhere that the Mearas are fearless? I haven't come across a comment like that so Snowmane could be one of the Mearas and still be fearful of the Nazgul!

I must say that there have been some very interesting points made about the Mearas! I will definitely not say anything for sure since the fun and joy of reading books like these is to use your imagination and let your mind do the interpreting.

Desi