Wk6 Bk5 Ch7: Denethor and Saruman

[Stormrider]

From: Stormrider (Original Message) Sent: 4/20/2003 11:59 PM


Denethor (I do not remember
who did this or where I found it)


Saruman by Scott K

(Well, Saurman's picture is a lot larger than Denethor's! It is not meant as a slight to Denethor--it is just that the pictures were different sizes!)

Both Saruman and Denethor thought themselves strong enough to gaze into the Palantir they had in their possession.

What do you think they expected to see from using the Stones?

Did they expect Sauron to have such an influence on what they saw in their Stone?

Were they so proud that they felt they were as strong or stronger than Sauron and could face him without being deceived?

Do you think Saruman (an Istari) was better equipped or prepared than Denethor (a Steward) to deal with Sauron through the Stone?

Sauron is very cunning and sly. How did he know how to plant the information in the Palantíri for Saruman and Denethor?

Did Sauron expect the reactions he got from both Saruman and Denethor?

[Stormrider]

From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 4/24/2003 3:49 AM
Both of them were very proud, and had underestimated Sauron's power, though I do believe that initially, they wanted to do good. I think they both hoped that they would be able to use the images they saw to overthrow Sauron, they probably just wanted to spy on him, and did not really expected that they would only be used. I guess they were desperate, but the different effects the gazing into the palantíri has on them, is interesting. Saruman turns over to the other side, while Denethor's despair sort of magnifies and drives him crazy. This must have been Sauron's intention; he probably had more use for Saruman, who was after all the White Istari, and head of the White Council, while Denethor was "only" a Human, though a noble one. By weakening the Steward of Minas Tirith however, it would be easier for Sauron to overthrow Gondor and move on to the countries beyond.

Being an Istari, maybe Saruman should have been better prepared for this, though we also know that even Gandalf did not dare to look into it, and that when Aragorn did it, he proved to have a stronger will. The higher the pedestal you're standing upon, the deeper you'll fall, I guess (this is probably not the way this has to be said in English , but I couldn't find the exact saying, so I hope you understand what I mean with this).

Now, how did Sauron know how to plant the information in the Palantíri? From the Silmarillion, we know that he has lived among the Númenoreans when he still had the power to pretend he was a good guy, inciting them to sail to the Undying Lands even though they weren't allowed to, thus achieving their fall (or maybe just hastening it, I mean, they were growing too proud already, Sauron just put oil on the fire back then). If I remember it correctly, the Númenoreans posessed the Palantíri in those days, so I think Sauron learned everything about how he had to use them, while he was staying on their island. Any other thoughts?

Navaer,
Alaere

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From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/14/2003 5:51 AM
I believe that Saruman and Denethor had different motives for looking in the stone to begin with....Saruman wished for power. Power over whatever he might see.
Denethor on the other hand, wished to protect Gondor. He wanted to see things that would help him in this.
I think that the motives of each allowed Sauron to "tailor" the visions to bring about what he wanted. Sauron wanted an ally in Saruman. Sauron needed a weak Gondor and he strove to make that happen using Denethor. Had Gandalf and company not come at the right time, Sauron would have seen Gondor fall apart from the inside. --DA

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From: Kendal Sent: 5/22/2003 4:26 PM
Alaere_Dûnhilien:

I like your read on the motives that Denethor and Saruman had for using the palantiri, both of them growing more desperate as Sauron's forces gained more victories. But I got the feeling, that may be wrong, that Sauron would have liked to turn Denethor more into a direct sort of traitor, like he did with Saruman, but simply could not twist Denethor that way. In a way, like Boromir said, maybe some of the numenoreans could actually resist evil better than some of the wizards themselvers? Driving Denethor into final madness was all that Sauron could accomplish there I think. Gandalf says of Denethor: "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power" page 161 ROTK but Saruman was "converted." I think Denethor had to struggle all his life with being a sort of freak because he was a throw-back, as Gandalf said, and was by some strange genetics almost purely numenorean despite his mixed mortal ancestries. As such he could never accept being under anyone's control, not Sauron's, not even Aragorn's as a returned king, and he would have to die rather than submit to taking second place under anyone. Saruman could wait longer, being immortal, and hope some day by serving as subordinate to Sauron that the time for replacing the Dark Lord might become available, especially if he could get the One Ring. So I guess Saruman could afford to compromise, but Denethor, proud of being almost like pure blooded numenorean, could not.

Alaere_Dûnhilien: I am reading the Akallabeth in the Silmarillion now, and togather with the LOTR I think that the palantiri were just the property of the House of Elendil even on numenor? And I don't think they would have shared the seeing stones with Sauron while he was there a "prisoner" of the king's. Maybe there were more palantiri in numenor than just those owned by Elendil?

From Stormrider question: "Sauron is very cunning and sly. How did he know how to plant the information in the Palantíri for Saruman and Denethor?"

Sauron had control over the old Ithil stone for a long time, lots of time to practise with it and see how it works. I think he even had more time with his palantiri than Saruman had with the one at Orthanc, and lots more time than Denethor had with the Anor stone.

I also got the idea that Sauron could not really plant anything in the palantiri, that they could not be made to show untruths or things made up as total fictions. But that Sauron had more control over what could be seen through the stones, a censership style that made Saruman think Sauron's forces were greater than they might be, and a censership that told part of the tale so Denethor might make mistakes in understanding what bits he could see. It is also said that the Ithil and Anor stones were sister stones and more in tune with each other than the Orthanc stone so Denethor should have been more influenced by Sauron through the stones than Saruman, but Denethor still resisted becoming a actual, willing traitor. So I think Sauron did not get quite the reaction he expected from Denethor, but seems to have succeeded better with the wizard.

Just another question here, did Denethor see Pippin talking to Sauron through the Orthanc stone? page 32 ROTK gives me that impression: "Was it so, or had he only imagined it, that as he spoke of the Stones a sudden gleam of his eye had glanced upon Pippin's face?"

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From: Kendal Sent: 5/22/2003 5:06 PM
DaleAnn:

I like the way you show the differences between motives for Saruman and Denethor. But my read on how Denethor was effected by the stone is different in that I see Gondor as only being stronger by Denethor's use of the palantiri up until near the end. I base this on Gandalf's speech where he notes that Denethor managed to stave off several Mordor attacks by knowing what was going on from the stones. The plans made for Gondor's defense seem also very good, with only the decision to man the causeway forts and outwall as being expensive of men's lives that could not hope to stop the High Nazgul's army there and might better be used to man the city walls?

So here, I am probably just not understanding your drift, but I don't see how Gondor was falling apart from the inside before Gandalf showed up. I got the feeling that Denethor was very good at defending and holding the place and that his final sickness came as a reaction to Gandalf being there as much as to internal weaknesses maybe caused by the use of the stone. Gandalf reminded Denethor that a replacement was on his way, Aragorn, no matter how well Denethor defended the place. I think Denethor knew Aragorn from before as Thorongil in the appendix, and felt an inferiority complex there as even his father seemed to like Thorongil more than Denethor. So for Denethor, there were lots of pressures that drove him to crack, and with Gandalf there it looks to me like Denethor felt he had to show people he was still the boss in Gondor so he ordered Faramir out to hold the causeways and Rammas wall to express his contrary opinions of Gandalf who seemed to be regarded by Faramir as more mighty and intelligent than his own father. When this resulted in Faramir's coming death by Nazgul fever, Denethor, already having lost one son, Boromir, fell apart, used the stone, did not interpret its visions correctly and then collapsed.

If what you mean is that the stone gave Denethor a more defensive mind and that he was not so good at going far afield to recruit other races to join in the fight, maybe the stone would have some impact there giving him the impression that only Gondor was important for the war.

I am trying to think how Denethor could have done anything more different if he had never had the stone around at all, but I think his own personality really caused his lack of effectiveness at the end of things, not so much Sauron's deliberate use of the stone to weaken his gondor foe's mind.