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Post by Stormrider on Jan 15, 2009 19:57:40 GMT -6
From: Stormrider (Original Message) Sent: 4/20/2003 11:07 PM "Your son has returned, Lord" by Anke-Katrin Eiszmann Denethor faces a dilemma, whether to hope against all odds that Gondor will stand against the forces of the Enemy or to despair. He chooses to despair. What are his reasons for despairing? Why wouldn't Denethor attempt to save Faramir at the Houses of Healing --instead he takes him with him to the pyre? Gandalf attempts to set Denethor straight by telling him that Faramir should seek healing and that Denethor is needed on the battlefield. Denethor wavers but does not take Gandalf's advice. Why does Denethor remain so defiant? Does he feel guilt? What catastrophe(s) and suffering(s) are caused by Denethor's despair and desire to burn himself? Denethor is about to commit suicide. Gandalf reminds him that Stewards "do not have the authority to order the hour of their death and that only heathen kings under the domination of the Dark Power slayed themselves in pride and despair." Is suicide considered a sin in Middle Earth? Does Denethor hope that his burning on the pyre is an act of purification?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 15, 2009 19:59:12 GMT -6
From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/13/2003 6:22 PM I am not a fan of Denethor. Matter of fact in comparison to Wormtongue, I label Denethor as a tad bit worse.
"The Downfall of the Prideful" seems to be one of Tolkien's favorite themes. Here Tolkien puts it plainly. And if not plainly enough here gives us added info in Appendix A. Denethor can't put aside his own pride (knowing full well that that upstart Aragorn was going to usurp his power) to add his help to save Gondor. Why does he wish to take Faramir with him?....(without looking for proof like I should)...because Faramir "belongs" to Denethor and part of him. The good Numenorean Kings laid down their lives and died when they wished. Denethor in a way is attempting to emulate those kings. Of course, Gandalf lets him know that he is terribly wrong. --DA * * * From: Colleen Sent: 5/13/2003 8:12 PM DA, I think you highlighted one of Denethor's major failings: "The good Numenorean Kings laid down their lives and died when they wished. Denethor in a way is attempting to emulate those kings. Of course, Gandalf lets him know that he is terribly wrong." Denethor, while claiming to be merely a Steward, acted like a King and saw Aragorn as a usurper. He also tried to die like a king -- but that was not his right. Colleen * * * From: Merlin the mad Sent: 5/13/2003 9:30 PM Denethor was prideful and also utterly loyal to his stewardship. He was not going to back down to a Wizard (which "race" he had learned to distrust with good reason, no matter how worthy Gandalf personally was). Ergo, the claims of Aragorn were not going to be accepted at such a fell hour: the enemy would send just such imposters to weaken and divide the realm. If Aragorn had had time enuf to prove his genuine lineage, I do not doubt that Denethor would have moved aside: especially as Aragorn would have let him keep the stewardship in his family. Denthor's sole weakness (aside from common human pride) was his hubris: his confidence that he could go will-to-will with Sauron using the Palantir. That was his undoing. He thot he was strong enuf and he was not. MtM * * * From: Stormrider Sent: 5/14/2003 7:38 AM MtM wrote: "the claims of Aragorn were not going to be accepted at such a fell hour: the enemy would send just such imposters to weaken and divide the realm. If Aragorn had had time enuf to prove his genuine lineage, I do not doubt that Denethor would have moved aside"
This makes a lot of sense. Anyone in the position of leadership for their country would most likely question others who say they have a claim as the true king (or leader) especially with an Evil Dark Lord wanted to destroy their country! I never thought of it in this light before. There was certainly enough trouble in Gondor and the surrounding areas that Denethor would question anyone claiming to be king. However, Aragorn did not officially make any claims at this point in the story. It is Gandalf who Denethor seems to be very suspicious of which probably was planted in Denethor's mind by Sauron through the palantír.
Stormrider
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