Wk6 Bk5 Ch7: Upstart Ranger of the North

[Stormrider]

From: Stormrider (Original Message) Sent: 4/20/2003 11:17 PM

Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn

Denethor says to Gandalf:

"Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me."

"But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."

Why does Denethor think Gandalf wishes to rule behind every throne?

If you do not know the lineage of the Northern and Southern Realms, please take a moment to review Appendix A:
(ii) The Realms in Exile - The Northern Line, Heirs of Isildur - The Southern Line, Heirs of Anárion
(iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur
(iv) Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion (including the section on the Stewards)

After reading this history, what do you have to say about the "Upstart Ranger of the North"?

Does he have a rightful claim to both the Northern and Southern Realms?

Is Denethor justified in his refusal to step aside for Aragorn?

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieLT Sent: 4/26/2003 10:48 AM
I am copying a post from Magpie (Bk5, Ch8 Discussion: Aragorn’s hesitancy to enter Minas Tirith) because I feel this information can aid us in understanding Denethor’s anger and fear of Gandalf supplanting him with this Upstart Ranger from the North. I underlined the first sentence because I think it applies nicely here.
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Magpie wrote:

The history of the ruling lineage plays a part here, also. This history can be found in the Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. Here's a quote (words spoken by Arvedui, the last king of the Arthedain) "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name Elendil stands to theis day at the of the line of Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all lands of the Dunedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South (Gondor) was commited to his sons; but when Elendil fell (along with his son, Anarion), Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and commitred the rule in the South in like manner to the son (Meneldil) of his brother." (words in parenthesis mine)

Meneldil was King of Gondor and his heirs ruled after him -- while Isildur's heirs were Kings of Arnor. When Anarion's line died out, the heir in Isildur's line (Arvedui) claimed, once more, the crown of Gondor. This claim was rejected and the current Steward of Gondor played the chief part in this rejection. This was when Arvedui spoke the words quoted above and added, "[Isildur] did not relinquish his royaltry in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever."

But the captain of the battle (Earnil) that had killed the last heirs of Anarion claimed the crown and ruled, as did his son (Earnur) after him, in Gondor. When Earnur died... "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife (a bloody civil war created by disagreements over the legitimacy of a mixed heritage heir-Eldacar), knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish." (emphasis mine) The Stewards ruled Gondor after Earnur until the time of Elessar.

I believe it is, in part, fear of renewed dissension that keeps Aragorn from claiming the title of King. _____________________________________________

After reading this history, what do you have to say about the "Upstart Ranger of the North"?

Does he have a rightful claim to both the Northern and Southern Realms?

Is Denethor justified in his refusal to step aside for Aragorn?