Wk7 Bk5 Ch10: The Lieutenant of Barad-Dur

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieLT (Original Message) Sent: 5/1/2003 3:02 PM

The picture was lost--it was entitled "The Lieutenant of Barad-Dur (Mouth of Sauron) by Luca Michlucci

Wk7, Bk5, Ch10, DISCUSSION: The Lieutenant of Barad-Dur

At the Black gate of Morannon the heralds call on Sauron to surrender. In answer, an envoy emerges led by an evil form "robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-Dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it." He refers to himself as the ’Voice of Sauron’. It is said that this adversary was a renegade of the race of the Black Numenoreans who lusted after evil knowledge and was more cruel than any Orc.

Part of this description baffles me. "...this was no ringwraith but a living man." Weren’t the Nazgul once men corrupted by Sauron? And three of the nine, we are told were Black Numenoreans. This Lieutenant is also corrupted by Sauron and strikes fear in the hearts of the free peoples. What are the differences between this new horror and the Ringwraiths? Do you find this emissary more frightening than the Black riders? Why or why not?

Sauron’s Messenger felt very confident that the men of Gondor and Rohan would accept his terms. What is the source of this confidence (or is it hubris)? Why was he so shocked when Gandalf not only snatched the tokens but refused the terms?

"Before his upraised hand the foul Messenger recoiled . . . Then the Messenger of Mordor laughed no more . His face was twisted with amazement and anger to the likeness of some wild beast that, as it crouches on its prey, is smitten on the muzzle with a stinging rod. "

Did Sauron and his foul mouth expect Gandalf and Aragorn to accept his terms? I would think he would know Gandalf well enough to know better. So why was the Messenger so amazed? Even fearful?

The messenger "gave a great cry, and turned, leaped upon his steed, and with his company galloped madly back to Cirith Gorgor, But as they went his soldiers blew their horns in signal long arranged; and even before they came to the gate Sauron sprang his trap." Now was this to be an ambush regardless of whether the men of Rohan and Gondor accepted Sauron’s terms? And if that be true, why had the Messenger been so enraged, so fearful when he knew that these men were trapped that "forces ten times and more than ten times their match would ring them in a sea of enemies."

[Stormrider]

From: Colleen Sent: 5/1/2003 3:54 PM
Something tells me that this is the first time the Mouth of Sauron had ever been refused -- at least while serving Sauron. His confusion, I believe, was more in shock than fright. Gandalf stood up to him, to a bully that can be quite off-putting. But I don't think he was completly without fear either. As Sauron's voice, he likely knew Gandalf was not a mortal. The recoil was fright -- he did not know what, if anything, Gandalf would do to him.

I think he is more frightening than the Nazgul, perhaps not as powerful, but more ominus. The Mouth of Sauron freely chose to follow Sauron, the Ringwraiths were tricked. I small part of me can pity the Ringwraiths -- they started out as relatively good men (power hungry, but not evil). In the Mouth of Sauron I find no redemption.

Colleen

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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 5/4/2003 10:07 PM
and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it

So is his name mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's books? Do we have more background on him?

When I first read this chapter I thought to myself no how is this guy different from the Ringwraiths? I think Colleen's discription is great! The Voice of Sauron does indeed sound scarier than the wraiths when you think that they were twisted into evil and he chose evil!

Desi

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From: FelineCat9 Sent: 5/5/2003 10:47 PM
remember Gandalf said Sauron would not smile , when they where likend unto a child who threats a Knight > Gandalf said Sauron would try to trap the fly and take the sting > Gandalf and the men of Gondor and Rohan where the fly and the ring was sting, Sauron did not think that they would try to destroy the Ring , I think he still thought that Pippin was the Ring Bearer and perhaps the Mouth of Sauron might would have known also , manby Sauron was able to give a good description of Pippin > I know the Mouth of Sauron did not seem to know who Pippin was as far as the hobbit who looked in the Stone , but how do we know the Mouth of Sauron just kept that secret > I think Sauron was afraid that manby Aragorn or Gandalf would use the Ring against him , so Sauron thought he would use this prisoner that he did not have to trick Gandalf so they would surrender rather then Sauron having to defeat them by force and take the Sting ( The Ring ) > Remember Gandalf once called Sauron a Wise Fool , meaning Sauron had Wisdom yes, but since he only thought about Domination that Sauron could not understand why any would refuse his Ring so that made him a foul , manby since Sauron was a Wise foul that it would also make him think that he could trick old Gandalf ? !

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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 5/11/2003 1:34 AM
Well if we consider the label Black Númenorean this in itself causes me to pause and wonder. This name impys to me that this enity survived since the downfall of Númenor. I have no actual qoutes to document this, but it is suggested these were the remaining followers of the policies of Ar-Pharazôn which remained in Middle-earth after Sauron's capture at his hands in the SA. This means here is a human that is over a thousand years old. I don't doubt he forgot his name.

So with this in mind, he does tend to have a bit more chill in his actions then the wraiths. That and his mount, where does Sauron get all these twisted critters from? LOL!

I came across mention that the Mouth of Sauron was a sorcerer in one of the guides, but I have yet to locate such proof in any of the Appendices, or later books.

I think the lack of name in his and the wraiths cases add a de-humanizing effect to these characters which works well to send a shiver up my spine.
Iarwain