Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 11:13:23 GMT -6
week five - Melkor AGAIN
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Message 1 of 8 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/11/2002 6:05 PM
I can't seem to stay away from him.
There is an interesting note, in the story of the men, about Melkor/Morgoth.
"But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew."
What was Morgoth up to? What is this "shadow" upon the hearts of Men? If we are the descendents of these Men, where do you see evidence for or against the idea that Morgoth visited us in the youth of our race?
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Message 2 of 8 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/13/2002 5:16 PM
What was Morgoth up to? The Valar got to the elves first, and though Morgoth introduced mistrust and weapons to the elves, he failed in dominating them. Perhaps he thought that if he could get to men first, he would have better luck.
What shadow on the hearts of men? Morgoth brought darkness wherever he went . . . Morgoth's influence on men shadowed their hearts. I don't have my copy of the Sil handy, but doesn't it say that of the inhabitants of M.E., men were most like Melkor? And if lust for power was Melkor's greatest vice, men certainly mirror that. Wasn't the 9 great kings' downfall that they accepted Sauron's rings because they wanted more power? And it is also common for modern men to crave power and be corrupted by that desire.
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Message 3 of 8 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/16/2002 1:58 PM
I have heard it said that villains are more interesting than heroes - and though I have never believed that, there is sometimes an element of truth in it. What I notice with Tolkien is that the villains seem to have more staying power. Morgoth is just about the only character with a significant personal peresence who lasts from the beginning of The Silmarillion to fairly close to the end of it. (I hope that saying this isn't a spoiler!)
Sauron appears in the Silmarillion and the carries on (albeit without a body) in The Lord of the Rings. The only other characters that span both books (at least that I can think of offhand) are Elrond and Galadriel.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 4 of 8 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/16/2002 5:59 PM
I believe that Melkor influenced men by making us afraid of death. The Elves seemed to think of the death of humans as a gift. Somehow Melkor twisted this as belief that the Valar and Elves were denying them immortality. Even today we look at death as scary and uncertain an by no means a gift that anyone wants to recieve.
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Message 5 of 8 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/16/2002 9:20 PM
Excellent insight, Rivers!
What an amazing victory for Melkor - to turn a blessing into a curse. The fear of death is certainly something that Sauron is later able to exploit - bringing the downfall of Numenor. But I'm getting ahead of our story...
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Message 6 of 8 in Discussion
From: heb864
Sent: 5/17/2002 7:49 AM
And despite everything, when push comes to shove, and his own neck is on the block, Melkor is really a big wimp. When Fingolfin came to challenge him, "he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear".
Hilary
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Message 7 of 8 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 5/17/2002 11:11 PM
Very interesting Hilary!! Do not ask me to quote, but I remember from literature, that it always seemed that the evil guys KNEW fear more than the good guys, and that somehow, this was because of their evilness.
Glor
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Message 8 of 8 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 3:20 AM
rivers wrote, in part:
"The Elves seemed to think of the death of humans as a gift."
An interesting thought. Page 38 (paperback) does make death sound
like a gift. "Unless one grow[s?] weary of ten thousand centuries"
sounds a bit sarcastic: the Elves must watch the earth they love
and (unlike Men) are bound to slowly, slowly die. "Death is their
fate...which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."
On page 178, when Beor dies, the Elves "saw for the first time...the
death of weariness which they knew not in themselves...." Was it
Galadriel who spoke of a great weariness, maybe in LotR? I don't
remember. How awful to be trapped forever in a sorrowful, hopeless
existence.
Diana
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 8 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/11/2002 6:05 PM
I can't seem to stay away from him.
There is an interesting note, in the story of the men, about Melkor/Morgoth.
"But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew."
What was Morgoth up to? What is this "shadow" upon the hearts of Men? If we are the descendents of these Men, where do you see evidence for or against the idea that Morgoth visited us in the youth of our race?
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 8 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/13/2002 5:16 PM
What was Morgoth up to? The Valar got to the elves first, and though Morgoth introduced mistrust and weapons to the elves, he failed in dominating them. Perhaps he thought that if he could get to men first, he would have better luck.
What shadow on the hearts of men? Morgoth brought darkness wherever he went . . . Morgoth's influence on men shadowed their hearts. I don't have my copy of the Sil handy, but doesn't it say that of the inhabitants of M.E., men were most like Melkor? And if lust for power was Melkor's greatest vice, men certainly mirror that. Wasn't the 9 great kings' downfall that they accepted Sauron's rings because they wanted more power? And it is also common for modern men to crave power and be corrupted by that desire.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 8 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 5/16/2002 1:58 PM
I have heard it said that villains are more interesting than heroes - and though I have never believed that, there is sometimes an element of truth in it. What I notice with Tolkien is that the villains seem to have more staying power. Morgoth is just about the only character with a significant personal peresence who lasts from the beginning of The Silmarillion to fairly close to the end of it. (I hope that saying this isn't a spoiler!)
Sauron appears in the Silmarillion and the carries on (albeit without a body) in The Lord of the Rings. The only other characters that span both books (at least that I can think of offhand) are Elrond and Galadriel.
namaste,
Azurite
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 8 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 5/16/2002 5:59 PM
I believe that Melkor influenced men by making us afraid of death. The Elves seemed to think of the death of humans as a gift. Somehow Melkor twisted this as belief that the Valar and Elves were denying them immortality. Even today we look at death as scary and uncertain an by no means a gift that anyone wants to recieve.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 8 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/16/2002 9:20 PM
Excellent insight, Rivers!
What an amazing victory for Melkor - to turn a blessing into a curse. The fear of death is certainly something that Sauron is later able to exploit - bringing the downfall of Numenor. But I'm getting ahead of our story...
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 8 in Discussion
From: heb864
Sent: 5/17/2002 7:49 AM
And despite everything, when push comes to shove, and his own neck is on the block, Melkor is really a big wimp. When Fingolfin came to challenge him, "he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear".
Hilary
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 8 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 5/17/2002 11:11 PM
Very interesting Hilary!! Do not ask me to quote, but I remember from literature, that it always seemed that the evil guys KNEW fear more than the good guys, and that somehow, this was because of their evilness.
Glor
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 8 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 3:20 AM
rivers wrote, in part:
"The Elves seemed to think of the death of humans as a gift."
An interesting thought. Page 38 (paperback) does make death sound
like a gift. "Unless one grow[s?] weary of ten thousand centuries"
sounds a bit sarcastic: the Elves must watch the earth they love
and (unlike Men) are bound to slowly, slowly die. "Death is their
fate...which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."
On page 178, when Beor dies, the Elves "saw for the first time...the
death of weariness which they knew not in themselves...." Was it
Galadriel who spoke of a great weariness, maybe in LotR? I don't
remember. How awful to be trapped forever in a sorrowful, hopeless
existence.
Diana