Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 21:15:57 GMT -6
Week Two - Elvenhome
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Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:16 AM
Please do not start the discussion until Sunday.
In LOTR we get used to thinking of Valinor as "Elvenhome" - the place where the elves truly belong. It turns out that wasn’t always so, and that some of the Valar disagreed with bringing the elves into the West. So where do the elves truly belong? What do you think of the Valar’s invitation to the elves? How about their motives?
Also, what are we learning about free will - both from the invitation to the elves (and their response), and the making of the dwarves?
Remember to avoid spoilers in our discussion - stick with the materials we have read so far!
______________________________________________
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Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:29 AM
I find this question of "Elvenhome" interesting because I have contradictory feelings. I think Tolkien is saying that Valinor is so blessed that the Elves who went there are better than the Elves who didn't, that the benefits of being there created Elvish culture, and that Elves are better off in Valinor, a place of beauty. It's like a Garden of Eden or a lost paradise.
I find that hard to believe. Feanor didn't believe it. Was it that the lies of Melkor had the power to become true, or was it that Valinor had its own imperfections?
Moreover, I like Middle-earth and I find it distressing that the Elves are leaving it at the end of the Third Age - distressing for their own sake. The dying away of the elder races is sad enough, but I find it sadder still that they depart from their home of Middle-earth while still living.
In other words, Tolkien often implied that Middle-earth was 'exile' for the Elves, but I see Valinor as the place of exile.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:44 AM
The question: "What do you think of the Valar’s invitation to the elves? How about their motives?" They loved the Children of Iluvatar for their beauty; they wanted to protect them from Melkor; they wanted to teach them.
Was it a fully selfless impulse, this love? I am reminded of childless people who take in the children of others as substitutes for their own. Some Ainur, like Melian, can and do bear children, but it seems to have been rare. Or unprecedented? Do we know of any other examples of Ainur with living biological progeny?
Moreover, I have the sense that they wanted love and respect from the Elves in return. Fair enough, but it hints of vanity.
We know that then the Elves heard rumours of the creation of Man, they were jealous and afraid becaue they were no longer the only Children of Iluvatar. Perhaps when the Elves were created, the Valar, knowing that they were no longer the only conscious beings dear to him, had similar feelings? Being good (except for Melkor) they dealt with it by trying to earn the love of the Elves.
Are we to assume that the Elves would never have developed their culture without the influence of the Valar? I can't believe that.
namaste,
Azurite
_______________________________________________
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Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/25/2002 5:54 AM
I was surprised when the Valar summoned the Elves to Valinor. I thought the whole idea of creating Middle Earth was as the place the Children of Ilúvatar would live. Was Valinor so much more beautiful than Middle Earth that the Valar wanted to share it with the Elves? If that is the case, why go to the bother of creating Middle Earth for the Children?
The Valar could go to Middle Earth and nurture the Children and teach them whatever they wanted to teach them. So why uproot them? They seemed to be perfectly happy in Middle Earth.
Stormrider
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Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:18 AM
Sotrmrider asks why the Valar summoned the Elves to Valinor, rather than going to Middle-earth themselves. I find this an interesting question. Why indeed? Perhaps because the Valar were so comfortable with their habitation there; perhaps because they didn't want to re-open a struggle with Melkor. But considering the trouble Elves had in relocating and going to Valinor in the first place, I think I would have stayed with Thingol or the Avari, myself.
I was intrigued that Melian was in Middle-earth. Did the Maia often stray to Middle-earth, or did she have a reason for being there? Was she visiting, or a permanent resident? If she did have a reason for visiting - or for being there - did she fulfil it?
If she wanted Thingol, why didn't she wait till he went to Valinor to enchant him? Or alternately, why not take him back with her when they met?
namaste,
Azurite
_________________________________________
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Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: Ilúviël Almarië
Sent: 9/23/2002 11:11 PM
I think Valinor is a archetypal symbol of not heaven or a perfect realm but the place we can truly be ourselves, live out our truth, our rested and fulfilled psychological state....which speaks of our essence and our awareness of it....I think that to appreciate that place within the journey starts as a separation and leads us "home" and perhaps the reluctance of the Valar to brings them thither was more a thought that they needed to spend time away so that one day the hunger would rise in their own hearts of its own volition. I think they may have come too soon, or at least for some this was true, for others like the Vanyar... it was a natural progression but later events show that the Elves did in fact have more living to do out there in the rugged wilderness of ME.
When are we psychologically ready to embrace our true natures?.. there is a different timing for all of us. Feanor's pride is interesting in that, it was a natural progession of the soul wanting to individuate and that it leads to strife within the psyche (Valinor).... a separation now that is more painful, for we know what is possible, and yet a thrill that we may find our own "Valinor" somewhere. I think Galadriel's feelings sum it up, that she had a desire to have her own kingdom. She did this but all paths lead to Valinor in the end...In some ways I think Valinor represents the Large Self....and yet the small self needs to find its own kingdom before it can appreciate the final destination, so to speak....
And yet the elves were brought to Valinor. I see this as absolute love and a wish to be with them. Just pure love and joy at this creation and wanting to be one with it. Just longing, even a parental longing to have the children close, but perhaps in hindsight not seeing that some of them may wish to be autonomous....Feanor's angry and proud declaration to the Valar reminds me of a young man sick of parental rules and in search of his own power.... and yet as we know power is a two edged sword and can lead to the ultimate disempowerement. Death then brings redemption... or some may find it before death comes and take the boat across the sea of separation to home....of their own free will.
Perhaps it was an act of mercy that the elves were born outside Valinor for I often think that the Christian ethos may have beeen better served had Adam and Eve been placed outside Eden in the first place....having known whaat is "not" valinor seeing valinor becomes a precious thing. I think we experience this as human beings. "Not having" leads us to what is eternal within us... and the sundering sea is perhaps necessary as a rite of passage...
The whole of Tolkien's work brings up that issue of how the world is structured and in doing so, how the psyche is structured..separation, dark and light.... all integrations we need to make within us...his story just puts it so beautifully and achingly....
anyway just some thoughts ...
Ilúviël
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:16 AM
Please do not start the discussion until Sunday.
In LOTR we get used to thinking of Valinor as "Elvenhome" - the place where the elves truly belong. It turns out that wasn’t always so, and that some of the Valar disagreed with bringing the elves into the West. So where do the elves truly belong? What do you think of the Valar’s invitation to the elves? How about their motives?
Also, what are we learning about free will - both from the invitation to the elves (and their response), and the making of the dwarves?
Remember to avoid spoilers in our discussion - stick with the materials we have read so far!
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:29 AM
I find this question of "Elvenhome" interesting because I have contradictory feelings. I think Tolkien is saying that Valinor is so blessed that the Elves who went there are better than the Elves who didn't, that the benefits of being there created Elvish culture, and that Elves are better off in Valinor, a place of beauty. It's like a Garden of Eden or a lost paradise.
I find that hard to believe. Feanor didn't believe it. Was it that the lies of Melkor had the power to become true, or was it that Valinor had its own imperfections?
Moreover, I like Middle-earth and I find it distressing that the Elves are leaving it at the end of the Third Age - distressing for their own sake. The dying away of the elder races is sad enough, but I find it sadder still that they depart from their home of Middle-earth while still living.
In other words, Tolkien often implied that Middle-earth was 'exile' for the Elves, but I see Valinor as the place of exile.
namaste,
Azurite
________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:44 AM
The question: "What do you think of the Valar’s invitation to the elves? How about their motives?" They loved the Children of Iluvatar for their beauty; they wanted to protect them from Melkor; they wanted to teach them.
Was it a fully selfless impulse, this love? I am reminded of childless people who take in the children of others as substitutes for their own. Some Ainur, like Melian, can and do bear children, but it seems to have been rare. Or unprecedented? Do we know of any other examples of Ainur with living biological progeny?
Moreover, I have the sense that they wanted love and respect from the Elves in return. Fair enough, but it hints of vanity.
We know that then the Elves heard rumours of the creation of Man, they were jealous and afraid becaue they were no longer the only Children of Iluvatar. Perhaps when the Elves were created, the Valar, knowing that they were no longer the only conscious beings dear to him, had similar feelings? Being good (except for Melkor) they dealt with it by trying to earn the love of the Elves.
Are we to assume that the Elves would never have developed their culture without the influence of the Valar? I can't believe that.
namaste,
Azurite
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/25/2002 5:54 AM
I was surprised when the Valar summoned the Elves to Valinor. I thought the whole idea of creating Middle Earth was as the place the Children of Ilúvatar would live. Was Valinor so much more beautiful than Middle Earth that the Valar wanted to share it with the Elves? If that is the case, why go to the bother of creating Middle Earth for the Children?
The Valar could go to Middle Earth and nurture the Children and teach them whatever they wanted to teach them. So why uproot them? They seemed to be perfectly happy in Middle Earth.
Stormrider
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:18 AM
Sotrmrider asks why the Valar summoned the Elves to Valinor, rather than going to Middle-earth themselves. I find this an interesting question. Why indeed? Perhaps because the Valar were so comfortable with their habitation there; perhaps because they didn't want to re-open a struggle with Melkor. But considering the trouble Elves had in relocating and going to Valinor in the first place, I think I would have stayed with Thingol or the Avari, myself.
I was intrigued that Melian was in Middle-earth. Did the Maia often stray to Middle-earth, or did she have a reason for being there? Was she visiting, or a permanent resident? If she did have a reason for visiting - or for being there - did she fulfil it?
If she wanted Thingol, why didn't she wait till he went to Valinor to enchant him? Or alternately, why not take him back with her when they met?
namaste,
Azurite
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: Ilúviël Almarië
Sent: 9/23/2002 11:11 PM
I think Valinor is a archetypal symbol of not heaven or a perfect realm but the place we can truly be ourselves, live out our truth, our rested and fulfilled psychological state....which speaks of our essence and our awareness of it....I think that to appreciate that place within the journey starts as a separation and leads us "home" and perhaps the reluctance of the Valar to brings them thither was more a thought that they needed to spend time away so that one day the hunger would rise in their own hearts of its own volition. I think they may have come too soon, or at least for some this was true, for others like the Vanyar... it was a natural progression but later events show that the Elves did in fact have more living to do out there in the rugged wilderness of ME.
When are we psychologically ready to embrace our true natures?.. there is a different timing for all of us. Feanor's pride is interesting in that, it was a natural progession of the soul wanting to individuate and that it leads to strife within the psyche (Valinor).... a separation now that is more painful, for we know what is possible, and yet a thrill that we may find our own "Valinor" somewhere. I think Galadriel's feelings sum it up, that she had a desire to have her own kingdom. She did this but all paths lead to Valinor in the end...In some ways I think Valinor represents the Large Self....and yet the small self needs to find its own kingdom before it can appreciate the final destination, so to speak....
And yet the elves were brought to Valinor. I see this as absolute love and a wish to be with them. Just pure love and joy at this creation and wanting to be one with it. Just longing, even a parental longing to have the children close, but perhaps in hindsight not seeing that some of them may wish to be autonomous....Feanor's angry and proud declaration to the Valar reminds me of a young man sick of parental rules and in search of his own power.... and yet as we know power is a two edged sword and can lead to the ultimate disempowerement. Death then brings redemption... or some may find it before death comes and take the boat across the sea of separation to home....of their own free will.
Perhaps it was an act of mercy that the elves were born outside Valinor for I often think that the Christian ethos may have beeen better served had Adam and Eve been placed outside Eden in the first place....having known whaat is "not" valinor seeing valinor becomes a precious thing. I think we experience this as human beings. "Not having" leads us to what is eternal within us... and the sundering sea is perhaps necessary as a rite of passage...
The whole of Tolkien's work brings up that issue of how the world is structured and in doing so, how the psyche is structured..separation, dark and light.... all integrations we need to make within us...his story just puts it so beautifully and achingly....
anyway just some thoughts ...
Ilúviël