Post by MajahTR on Jan 18, 2009 22:14:25 GMT -6
This chapter is all about "Fate and Choice", and "Good vs Evil", and the "The Power of the Common Man", and "Friendship", and…probably half a dozen other themes. A regular treasure trove of stuff here, this pivotal chapter.
Elrond begins the council by telling the story we find in the Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. I went back and reread it at this point in the Council of Elrond chapter to squeeze every drop I could out of it.
Tolkien gives each of his characters a particular mode of speech. Elrond often puts the object in front of the verb. For instance, 'Only to the North did these tidings come' rather than 'These tidings came only to the North.' This archaic syntax helps to give Elrond his place in history.
The next to speak is Boromir. He, also, uses a more archaic mode, but for a different reason. Gondor is trying to retain the culture of Numenor and this is why he tends to use the same mode as Elrond, but less effectively.
There are several interesting things in Boromir's speech to the council. First, if we question whether or not a "power" was at work to bring these peoples together here at this moment, the riddle poem that was within Faramir's dream gives certainty to it now.
I said in my introduction that the character of Boromir changed for me because of the movie. Previously, I had little understanding or "love" for this character. The movie helped me understand the great deal of stress he was under and as a warrior all he was doing was looking at the Ring as the perfect weapon. As I read the book this time I noticed things about Boromir that I never did before…but those things come up later. And to give Boromir a chance in your minds, I'm bringing up Zauber and Olorie's notes from the Verilyn Flieger lecture again in a separate thread.
I wonder why the riddle dream was given to Faramir on a recurring basis then Boromir once. Did the Valar prefer Faramir to find the answer but accepted Boromir as a second choice? What would it have been like had Faramir been a part of the Fellowship instead?
An odd comparison came to me this time when reading the next section of the council. When Aragorn speaks of the Rangers protecting the North…it reminds me of the F.B.I. and the work they are doing to protect the US. Far less thanks they get than the military as the Rangers did compared to the military of Gondor.
I see Aragorn and Boromir as a "Pair." Aragorn is that much more "hero" material than if Boromir did not exist. As the story unfolds we'll see the contrast between the two characters even more.
Now we come to Gandalf's part. He repeats a speech given by Saruman at the last White Council, in 2953TA. This time Saruman uses the word "Enemy" to describe Sauron. Several pages later, when Gandalf describes his meeting and imprisonment by Saruman, he again repeats a speech by Saruman in which he now calls Sauron a "Power" and a bit later in a different passage as "Ruler", no longer the "Enemy". This speech is pure political jargon. Saruman's power is in his voice, as we find out later, and his speeches and the decline of language in those speeches are interesting to watch.
Gandalf speaks of seeing Denethor and gives this quote when speaking of the library and lore in Gondor. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come and that is my care." How long did Denethor use the Palantir? Was he already looking into it at this point or was this foreshadowing?
Tolkien uses archaic language for the scroll of Isildur to show the shift in language pattern: seemeth, loseth, etc.
When Gandalf recites the Ring Verse in the Black Speech a Shadow passed over the sun: a powerful metaphor. Later, when Legolas describes the night Gollum escaped, the night was moonless and starless.
Has anyone ever noticed that Tolkien created a loophole but, then closed it again swiftly? The Eagles would have been an easy means of transportation to the cracks of Mt. Doom, especially since the Nine were on horseback at this point. But, the Eagles will not carry burdens to "the ends of the Earth."… and thankfully not, otherwise we would not have a book to read.
Gandalf goes through his story and places it within the framework of Frodo's journey so we are aware of the timing, with particular emphasis on the events at Weathertop. Rather than Frodo having a prophetic dream of Gandalf at Orthanc, we find out he dreamt it after Gandalf's rescue. I wonder why.
After it is decided to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Mt. Doom, and Boromir has trouble understanding why it is not used against Sauron instead, Elrond makes the statement "The very desire of it corrupts the heart." Later, Galadriel says that she had desired it for a long time. I believe that when she passed her "test" the corrupting influence left her, (as sin does when one is repentant, according to Christian tenets).
And so the small and humble will take the Ring where the Wise, Strong and Powerful cannot.
DA
DA said
I wonder why the riddle dream was given to Faramir on a recurring basis then Boromir once. Did the Valar prefer Faramir to find the answer but accepted Boromir as a second choice? What would it have been like had Faramir been a part of the Fellowship instead?
This is my opinion, unsupported by any evidence.
I think Faramir was the one who was "meant" to be part of the fellowship. The dream clearly gave the quest to him. I think Boromir received the dream once to validate what his brother was receiving. But Boromir was proud, and could not humble himself to allow his younger brother to take on this quest. So he (with Denethor's support) over-ruled the dream, and Boromir went.
Faramir had the right strength of character to allow him to be part of the fellowship without being overcome by temptation, as Boromir was. We see this when he refuses to take the ring from Frodo.
What would have happened if Faramir was allowed to follow his destiny? We can never know what might have been. Probably Boromir would not have died.
I posted something about "destiny" on the ME&Spirituality board which is relevant to this.
Some higher power is clearly involved in the story of the Ring. There may have been one ideal path that would have resulted in everything working out. But there are also many alternative paths. I think what we see, with Boromir and Faramir, is one of the alternative paths - not the ideal, but it worked.
My two cents...
Megn1
Megn1 wrote:
I think Faramir was the one who was "meant" to be part of the fellowship. The dream clearly gave the quest to him. I think Boromir received the dream once to validate what his brother was receiving. But Boromir was proud, and could not humble himself to allow his younger brother to take on this quest. So he (with Denethor's support) over-ruled the dream, and Boromir went.
Excellent Megn. I'm inclined to agree with you. It does seem as though it really was not his path to take. That might explain why he crumbled so under the pressure.
However, there are a few other things to consider...
One is that Boromir's actions at Amon Sul gave Frodo the push he needed to break the Fellowship. This was almost certainly a necessity (I will explore the Valar's part in this in a later post in the Illuvatar/Valar thread). Surely two tiny, insignificant Hobbits had more of a chance of getting through Mordor undetected and unchallenged then a band of eight walkers.
If we will be tracking Boromir I think we may see other points which will cause more questions about whether or not he was meant to be there.
DA wrote:
An odd comparison came to me this time when reading the next section of the council. When Aragorn speaks of the Rangers protecting the North…it reminds me of the F.B.I. and the work they are doing to protect the US. Far less thanks they get than the military as the Rangers did compared to the military of Gondor.
Good point DA. But I'd venture to say this applies to Police in general, not just the FBI.
I see Aragorn and Boromir as a "Pair." Aragorn is that much more "hero" material than if Boromir did not exist.
Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand what you mean here.
Gandalf speaks of seeing Denethor and gives this quote when speaking of the library and lore in Gondor. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come and that is my care." How long did Denethor use the Palantir? Was he already looking into it at this point or was this foreshadowing?
In Appendix A, we're told that he may have been looking into the Palantir as early as TA 2988, after Finduilas' death. "After her death Denethor...would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought , foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time."
Illadria
Elrond begins the council by telling the story we find in the Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. I went back and reread it at this point in the Council of Elrond chapter to squeeze every drop I could out of it.
Tolkien gives each of his characters a particular mode of speech. Elrond often puts the object in front of the verb. For instance, 'Only to the North did these tidings come' rather than 'These tidings came only to the North.' This archaic syntax helps to give Elrond his place in history.
The next to speak is Boromir. He, also, uses a more archaic mode, but for a different reason. Gondor is trying to retain the culture of Numenor and this is why he tends to use the same mode as Elrond, but less effectively.
There are several interesting things in Boromir's speech to the council. First, if we question whether or not a "power" was at work to bring these peoples together here at this moment, the riddle poem that was within Faramir's dream gives certainty to it now.
I said in my introduction that the character of Boromir changed for me because of the movie. Previously, I had little understanding or "love" for this character. The movie helped me understand the great deal of stress he was under and as a warrior all he was doing was looking at the Ring as the perfect weapon. As I read the book this time I noticed things about Boromir that I never did before…but those things come up later. And to give Boromir a chance in your minds, I'm bringing up Zauber and Olorie's notes from the Verilyn Flieger lecture again in a separate thread.
I wonder why the riddle dream was given to Faramir on a recurring basis then Boromir once. Did the Valar prefer Faramir to find the answer but accepted Boromir as a second choice? What would it have been like had Faramir been a part of the Fellowship instead?
An odd comparison came to me this time when reading the next section of the council. When Aragorn speaks of the Rangers protecting the North…it reminds me of the F.B.I. and the work they are doing to protect the US. Far less thanks they get than the military as the Rangers did compared to the military of Gondor.
I see Aragorn and Boromir as a "Pair." Aragorn is that much more "hero" material than if Boromir did not exist. As the story unfolds we'll see the contrast between the two characters even more.
Now we come to Gandalf's part. He repeats a speech given by Saruman at the last White Council, in 2953TA. This time Saruman uses the word "Enemy" to describe Sauron. Several pages later, when Gandalf describes his meeting and imprisonment by Saruman, he again repeats a speech by Saruman in which he now calls Sauron a "Power" and a bit later in a different passage as "Ruler", no longer the "Enemy". This speech is pure political jargon. Saruman's power is in his voice, as we find out later, and his speeches and the decline of language in those speeches are interesting to watch.
Gandalf speaks of seeing Denethor and gives this quote when speaking of the library and lore in Gondor. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come and that is my care." How long did Denethor use the Palantir? Was he already looking into it at this point or was this foreshadowing?
Tolkien uses archaic language for the scroll of Isildur to show the shift in language pattern: seemeth, loseth, etc.
When Gandalf recites the Ring Verse in the Black Speech a Shadow passed over the sun: a powerful metaphor. Later, when Legolas describes the night Gollum escaped, the night was moonless and starless.
Has anyone ever noticed that Tolkien created a loophole but, then closed it again swiftly? The Eagles would have been an easy means of transportation to the cracks of Mt. Doom, especially since the Nine were on horseback at this point. But, the Eagles will not carry burdens to "the ends of the Earth."… and thankfully not, otherwise we would not have a book to read.
Gandalf goes through his story and places it within the framework of Frodo's journey so we are aware of the timing, with particular emphasis on the events at Weathertop. Rather than Frodo having a prophetic dream of Gandalf at Orthanc, we find out he dreamt it after Gandalf's rescue. I wonder why.
After it is decided to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Mt. Doom, and Boromir has trouble understanding why it is not used against Sauron instead, Elrond makes the statement "The very desire of it corrupts the heart." Later, Galadriel says that she had desired it for a long time. I believe that when she passed her "test" the corrupting influence left her, (as sin does when one is repentant, according to Christian tenets).
And so the small and humble will take the Ring where the Wise, Strong and Powerful cannot.
DA
DA said
I wonder why the riddle dream was given to Faramir on a recurring basis then Boromir once. Did the Valar prefer Faramir to find the answer but accepted Boromir as a second choice? What would it have been like had Faramir been a part of the Fellowship instead?
This is my opinion, unsupported by any evidence.
I think Faramir was the one who was "meant" to be part of the fellowship. The dream clearly gave the quest to him. I think Boromir received the dream once to validate what his brother was receiving. But Boromir was proud, and could not humble himself to allow his younger brother to take on this quest. So he (with Denethor's support) over-ruled the dream, and Boromir went.
Faramir had the right strength of character to allow him to be part of the fellowship without being overcome by temptation, as Boromir was. We see this when he refuses to take the ring from Frodo.
What would have happened if Faramir was allowed to follow his destiny? We can never know what might have been. Probably Boromir would not have died.
I posted something about "destiny" on the ME&Spirituality board which is relevant to this.
Some higher power is clearly involved in the story of the Ring. There may have been one ideal path that would have resulted in everything working out. But there are also many alternative paths. I think what we see, with Boromir and Faramir, is one of the alternative paths - not the ideal, but it worked.
My two cents...
Megn1
Megn1 wrote:
I think Faramir was the one who was "meant" to be part of the fellowship. The dream clearly gave the quest to him. I think Boromir received the dream once to validate what his brother was receiving. But Boromir was proud, and could not humble himself to allow his younger brother to take on this quest. So he (with Denethor's support) over-ruled the dream, and Boromir went.
Excellent Megn. I'm inclined to agree with you. It does seem as though it really was not his path to take. That might explain why he crumbled so under the pressure.
However, there are a few other things to consider...
One is that Boromir's actions at Amon Sul gave Frodo the push he needed to break the Fellowship. This was almost certainly a necessity (I will explore the Valar's part in this in a later post in the Illuvatar/Valar thread). Surely two tiny, insignificant Hobbits had more of a chance of getting through Mordor undetected and unchallenged then a band of eight walkers.
If we will be tracking Boromir I think we may see other points which will cause more questions about whether or not he was meant to be there.
DA wrote:
An odd comparison came to me this time when reading the next section of the council. When Aragorn speaks of the Rangers protecting the North…it reminds me of the F.B.I. and the work they are doing to protect the US. Far less thanks they get than the military as the Rangers did compared to the military of Gondor.
Good point DA. But I'd venture to say this applies to Police in general, not just the FBI.
I see Aragorn and Boromir as a "Pair." Aragorn is that much more "hero" material than if Boromir did not exist.
Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand what you mean here.
Gandalf speaks of seeing Denethor and gives this quote when speaking of the library and lore in Gondor. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come and that is my care." How long did Denethor use the Palantir? Was he already looking into it at this point or was this foreshadowing?
In Appendix A, we're told that he may have been looking into the Palantir as early as TA 2988, after Finduilas' death. "After her death Denethor...would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought , foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time."
Illadria