Wk8 Bk6 Ch1: Those Nasty Orcs!

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 5/11/2003 10:05 PM

The Road to Minas Tirith by Tim Kirk

"Copyright Tim Kirk. All Rights Reserved"

Shagrat has orders:

"Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or tinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself."

[The Two Towers, "The Choices of Master Samwise"]

Despite the terror of what could happen to them if they do not follow these orders, they still fight over Frodo and the spoils.

Do they really think they can get away with stealing the goods, especially with orders to turn every last article found on their captives in? Are orcs that greedy and stupid? Even terrible fates for those who disobey orders don't seem to be able to keep them in line! Why would they chance it? How can a Dark Lord trust these evil slaves of his?

Is Sauron's Power over his evil creatures diminishing or has Sauron always had this problem with his orcs? Or does he thrive on having unruly slave? Does he enjoy the challenge?

Did orcs obey Morgoth any better?

[Stormrider]

From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 5/13/2003 8:22 AM
My answer to this question comes from an earlier chapter, it is from the discussion between the two Orc captains. They are wondering how it is possible that anyone is able to enter Mordor, despite Sauron who is supposed to 'see all', and the Nazgûl who are guarding the Morgul Vale. Somehow, they are starting to realize that their masters can be fooled, and this realization makes them overconfident.

I have never thought the Orcs stupid. They are not geniuses, okay, but I think they are a bit like Gollum: small, and cunning. They only obey orders because they are afraid, that is what I think Sauron bases his dominion on: keep everyone afraid enough, then they will have to obey him, because they fear what he will do to them if they go against his will. I don't think he trusts any of his servants; with evil, it just doesn't work that way. In this point of view, his Power seems indeed to be diminishing. Anyhow, now the Orcs have found out that he doesn't know everything after all, they can at least try and see what happens.

Navaer,
Alaere

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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 5/13/2003 6:07 PM
I think of the orcs more as animals than human. They care about what is happening right now or how they feel at that moment. In the tower of Cirith Ungol it is almost like the 2 different tribes/herds are fighting over territory. In this case the territory is Frodo and his possessions and they both want to rule that territory in different ways.

Sauron should have known better than to have both tribes/herds in the same area. If he only had Shagrat's tribe things may have worked out better for Sauron.

Desi

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieofTR Sent: 5/18/2003 7:56 PM

The Soldier and the Tracker by Alan Lee

"Copyright Alan Lee. All Rights Reserved"

Wk9, Bk6, Ch2, ONGOING DISCUSSION: THOSE NASTY ORCS! The Soldier and the Tracker

After attempting several paths along the crest of the Morgai, Frodo and Sam are forced to go back down and try to find a path across the valley crowded with orc tents and camps. They manage to get by one orc hold and just as they begin to breathe sighs of relief they hear orc voices. Again they seek a place of hiding, this time behind a bush. Two orcs come into view and they stop close to the hobbits refuge.

Who are these two characters anyway? What do Frodo and Sam learn from their discussion? Do they add a bit of suspense or perhaps a bit of humor? Do we learn more about orc temperament and character or do these two only clarify what we already know? What do they know of Gollum and what are their attitudes toward him? How does Tolkien bring this conversation to an end? It seems to me to be a common end to many orcs, death at the hand of one of their "brothers."

Do they have anything in common with Shagrat and Gorbag? Do any other famous orcs come to mind? How do their temperaments and attitudes compare to the tracker and the soldier? What do you think it would take to reform or redeem an orc?