Post by Andorinha on Jan 19, 2009 7:59:39 GMT -6
Tulkas
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 5 in Discussion
From: Azurite (Original Message) Sent: 4/14/2002 1:47 PM
When Tolkien describes Tulkas in the Valaquenta, he says: "Tulkas laughs ever, and even in the face of Melkor he laughed in battles before the Elves were born."
Does this mean he always laughed in battle, and laughs in battle still after the Elves were born? Or does it mean that when the Elves were born he stopped laughing? I think the former is the correct interpretation (because the word "laughs" at the beginning of the sentence is in the present tense) but I find it ambiguous.
I like the individual personalities of the Valar, and I find the gender distinctions rather interesting.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 5 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/18/2002 9:36 AM
Since Tolkien was a master of language, I'm going to assume that he would put a modifier next to the thing it modifies. So "before the elves were born" modifies "battles" (Which battles do we mean? The battles before the elves were born.) It does not modify "laughed." (When did he laugh?...)
After all, we are told that Tulkas "laughs ever." I don't think he stopped.
The gender question is interesting. Valaquenta tells us that the gender of each was inherent in their being, and only "shown forth" by the bodies they wore. Just as our gender is shown in the clothing we wear, but the clothes do not determine our gender.
It implies that gender distinction, "maleness" and "femaleness," is a fundamental distinction in the order of the universe that goes beyond the created orders of life and sexual reproduction.
It also reminds me of a conversation. Years ago, when my first child was born, my sister-in-law and her children visited me in the hospital. They saw the baby, wrapped in a pink blanket. I told the story of her birth (editted, for children's ears), and how, at the moment of birth, the doctor had said "it's a girl!" My six-year-old neice innocently asked "How did the doctor know?" Her mother then replied "remember how, when I change your little brother's diaper, you can tell that he is a boy? Boys have thingyes, and girls have girl thingys. When the baby was born, she had no diaper on." My neice understood, but she seemed horrified at the idea that the doctor would have looked at her new cousin THERE. Ah, the innocence of children!
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/18/2002 10:15 AM
Thanks, your reading makes sense - and is the interpretation I prefer in any case.
Do we hear much of Tulkas in the course of Tolkien's writings?
namaste,
Azurite
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/18/2002 2:37 PM
There isn't much more about Tulkas in Sil. In fact, after next week's reading we don't get much more about any of the Valar. It becomes the story of the elves.
I don't know if there is anything about him in Unfinished Tales, or other writings of Tolkien. Anyone else want to comment?
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
Sent: 11/24/2002 1:37 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 5 in Discussion
From: Azurite (Original Message) Sent: 4/14/2002 1:47 PM
When Tolkien describes Tulkas in the Valaquenta, he says: "Tulkas laughs ever, and even in the face of Melkor he laughed in battles before the Elves were born."
Does this mean he always laughed in battle, and laughs in battle still after the Elves were born? Or does it mean that when the Elves were born he stopped laughing? I think the former is the correct interpretation (because the word "laughs" at the beginning of the sentence is in the present tense) but I find it ambiguous.
I like the individual personalities of the Valar, and I find the gender distinctions rather interesting.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 5 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/18/2002 9:36 AM
Since Tolkien was a master of language, I'm going to assume that he would put a modifier next to the thing it modifies. So "before the elves were born" modifies "battles" (Which battles do we mean? The battles before the elves were born.) It does not modify "laughed." (When did he laugh?...)
After all, we are told that Tulkas "laughs ever." I don't think he stopped.
The gender question is interesting. Valaquenta tells us that the gender of each was inherent in their being, and only "shown forth" by the bodies they wore. Just as our gender is shown in the clothing we wear, but the clothes do not determine our gender.
It implies that gender distinction, "maleness" and "femaleness," is a fundamental distinction in the order of the universe that goes beyond the created orders of life and sexual reproduction.
It also reminds me of a conversation. Years ago, when my first child was born, my sister-in-law and her children visited me in the hospital. They saw the baby, wrapped in a pink blanket. I told the story of her birth (editted, for children's ears), and how, at the moment of birth, the doctor had said "it's a girl!" My six-year-old neice innocently asked "How did the doctor know?" Her mother then replied "remember how, when I change your little brother's diaper, you can tell that he is a boy? Boys have thingyes, and girls have girl thingys. When the baby was born, she had no diaper on." My neice understood, but she seemed horrified at the idea that the doctor would have looked at her new cousin THERE. Ah, the innocence of children!
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/18/2002 10:15 AM
Thanks, your reading makes sense - and is the interpretation I prefer in any case.
Do we hear much of Tulkas in the course of Tolkien's writings?
namaste,
Azurite
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/18/2002 2:37 PM
There isn't much more about Tulkas in Sil. In fact, after next week's reading we don't get much more about any of the Valar. It becomes the story of the elves.
I don't know if there is anything about him in Unfinished Tales, or other writings of Tolkien. Anyone else want to comment?
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
Sent: 11/24/2002 1:37 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.