|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 25, 2013 5:15:11 GMT -6
RE Freddy's: "Dwyrmur wouldn't be that interested in mathoms but he would take a keen interest in that mithril flute Andorinha found. Would probably be astonished to see it there and shaking his head at those foolish Stoor hobbits who didn't know the worth of what they found. On that note, where did the flute come from? Mithril ore in the Gladden Fields? Or did they trade for it with passing travelers? Said travelers would have been as clueless as the Stoors since there's no way a dwarf would part with mithril for anything a hobbit could offer him." (my emphasis) _______________________________ LOL -- where indeed? In my thought, the flute is largely ivory, the mouthpiece only is of mithril -- and it is mithril. I never said the flute was Stoor-made, it is indeed a mathom with a very long and ancient pedigree. It was in fact an Elven artifact, and for long centuries its enchanted tones were wakened by a series of Elvish adepts, "musicians" if you will. I rather think it must have originated at the height of Khazad-dum, during the fine and collaborative period of the Mirdain of Eregion and their Dwarf counterparts. In those days -- as we know from Tolkien's words -- mithril was more common, it was parceled out far and wide and in sufficient quantities to make many Elven "baubbles," like Galadriel's Ring; and perhaps the sceptre of Annuminas; and in masses enough that it could be used for the helmets of the Tower Guard in Minas Tirith. At least 300 helmets worth? As a company is fairly standardly reckoned at 100 - 120 men in western tradition (including JRRT's own WW I company) going back to the Roman "Century" of 100 troops led by a Centurion -- Beregond belonged to the 3rd company of the Minas Tirith guard, hence my feeling that we have at least 300 mithril helms at the very end of the Third Age... Tolkien tells us that before the Balrog woke and created a shortage of the stuff, mithril was only valued at 10 times the worth of an equal mass of gold. Later it became virtually priceless, as no more was being produced, and Sauron had his minions gather up all they could find, loot, and steal. So, if you will, my bit of mithril comes from an earlier age, a happier day when Elves had plenty of the stuff, for jewelry and magical harps, and even a smallish bit for a flute's mouthpiece... As for the Stoor-related hobbits of the Gladden area, they may not have known just what the metal was? Afterall, in Bilbo's day his shirt of mithril mail was taken back to Hobbiton where it became a mathom indeed, and was set on display in Michel Delving for a goodly while, with hobbits thinking it just one more pretty curiosity, never guessing the current market value of its material... So if some quasi-Stoor possessed and played the instrument -- he or she may never have guessed its "monetary" value... Now, just how and when this smallish scrap of mithril, fixed by an ancient Elf to twin tubes of ivory, perhaps in the Second Age, perhaps sometime early in the Third, got to be lost and found, and stolen, looted and passed from hoard to hoard, and hand to hand, until, somehow, somewhen it wound up in a rude hobbit settlement alongside the Anduin might make a mighty story in itself. But then, stranger and more precious things were also found by hobbits near the Gladden fields -- even a shiny, golden Ring. lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Mithril________________ I toyed a bit with Isildur owning the flute, lost in the wreck of his force, but that may push things a bit. Though JRRT uses a similar mechanism, does he not? -- A lost hoard of looted treasure, which allows him to arm Gandalf and Thorin and even little Bilbo with ancient Elven swords of great lineage...
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 25, 2013 10:55:15 GMT -6
A small addendum on the availability of mithril -- how much of the stuff would be required to refashion the great gates of Minas Tirith? Apparently there was a goodly quantity of the stuff on hand even after the Third Age ended. LOL one could speculate that the Old Mines of Moria -- now without an interfering Balrog, had been reopened and several tons of mithril were now available for making gates?
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 26, 2013 6:46:39 GMT -6
Since I have a flute myself in RL, I automatically think of the whole flute in silver! I was wondering about the ivory part and thought you had been talking about some parts of the keys perhaps.
So your flute is more like the wooden flutes you see/buy at Renaissance Fairs and you hold them in front of you. My flute is held out to the right and I blow over the opening in the mouthpiece rather than put my lips around the mouthpiece.
I would think that Stoors would have orchestras for their celebrations. It would not be strange that you would find a flute (or any other instrument, for that matter) in this area. But the fact that it has the mithril mouthpiece is unique. But like you said, in the earlier days when mithril was being mined and there was no Balrog to interfere, mithril may have been more prominent and maybe not as expensive. But once it became scarce, then the price sky-rocketed! And your flute just has a small amount anyway.
Dwyrmur, when you feel up to it, it should be your turn to write. Even if you don't want to find any mathoms, perhaps you might know something about ours as we gather together with our finds and kindling and branches.
|
|
|
Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Aug 26, 2013 11:49:02 GMT -6
Cool backstory for the flute, Andorinha. I hadn't thought about the fact that mithril was more available before the awakening of Durin's Bane.
But now I'm confused about something else. The flute is mostly ivory. Where does one get ivory in Middle-earth? Would it come from mumakil tusks traded by the Men of Harad or Gondorian explorers? Or would aurochs horns be made of ivory?
Just had an idea for my mathom so I will work on a new post.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 27, 2013 10:57:55 GMT -6
Ivory in ME -- I rather think the stuff would be quite readily available, as easy to come by as it was in our Real Life world during the ancient periods. If you look at the ME maps in Fonstad's Atlas esp p.45, Harad itself, including the great port of Umbar, is upon a suspiciously Africa-like continental formation. It is in ME, as it was in our Real World, the home of the Elephant or Oliphaunt. In terms of miles, it is quite simply right upon the southern doorstep of what will become the Third Age Kingdom of Gondor.
In the Second Age, in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien makes much of the great seafaring tradition of the Numenoreans, and he maps out the trade routes they established. From the quarter panel map in the upper left p. 45, we can see these routes marked out, and they actually circumnavigate the mortal land continents of ME. There would also have been a thriving land trade, as we know from the Fireworks and Toys of Dale that were traded all the way to Hobbiton for Bilbo's party.
Ivory has always been prized, and it would have undoubtedly been much in demand for those uses and items where wood might be considered too fragile or not enduring enough, nor as prestigious as the tusks of exotic mammals. Ivory often survives in archaeological contexts far better than most woods, and in peaty environments, like areas near streams and in bogs and swamps the stuff can be pristine after thousands of years...
North African ivory, from elephants, has been found in Viking settlements, used as gaming pieces, sword handles, combs, jewelry and yes -- even flutes.
Something Tolkien does not specifically mention -- except perhaps in his poetry "Fasticolan" (check spelling!) -- is the availability of whale ivory, and the great tusks of the northern animals that must have lived around the bay of Forochel. As a supremely confident sea-faring folk with routes up into Forochel the Numenoreans would have been exposed frequently to such creatures.
So, I feel confident that we would have several sources for ivory -- the most likely being trade from some such entrepôt as Umbar in Harad, which was at times under Numenorean control and in the Third Age sometimes belonged to the "empire" of Gondor especially under its king Umbardacil.
The Elves themselves specifically the Teleri, had a great seafaring tradition even in the First Age, and Amroth's people in the coastal zone of what would later become Gondor, were ideally suited to take advantage of trade with Harad and areas further south.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 27, 2013 11:45:18 GMT -6
Just incidental stuff:
A bit more on mithril: The Elves of The First Age had some abundant source of the stuff, perhaps outside of Khazad-dum? I'll have to check as to when the Mines of Moria were first established and whether mithril was found there right away -- but I do recall Durin the First, Deathless is credited with starting the place, sometime in the the First Age. But when did they first find the great Mithril lodes that led down towards the roots of the Redhorn?
At any rate, the Elves, if Bilbo's song is an accurate source, had enough mithril and elven-glass on hand to build a ship, Vingolot (sp?) for Earendil the Mariner towards the end of the First Age (FOTR, "Many Meetings," p. 229).
I have also seen several brief references in secondary sources that state mithril was natively found in the Elven realms, and on Numenor itself -- but so far I have not been able to track those tantalizing clues and produce a citation from Tolkien himself...
Drat that hobbit Andorinha -- if he had been content to merely gather firewood, I'd have a lot less research to do.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 27, 2013 12:07:07 GMT -6
Nothing like "looking" to find "something!" The symbol of office of the Lords of Andúnië was also a sceptre, the Sceptre of Andúnië. It is described as being a "silver rod", perhaps it was made of mithril. Elendil brought it to Middle-earth, where it became the symbol of office of the Kings of Arnor. As such it was usually known as the Sceptre of Annuminas, after the capital city of Arnor. When Elrond presented it to King Elessar at the end of the Third Age it was thought to be the oldest artefact made by Men preserved in Middle-earth. Mithril was found on Númenor (see UT 284, note 31). Gandalf's statement that it was found in Moria "alone in the world" (LotR 2:4) no doubt refers to the world accessible to the Dwarves, the world of Middle-earth - i.e. Arda excluding Valinor and Númenor. tolkien.cro.net/humans/numintro.htmlIn Unfinished Tales, Tolkien does state that some of the regalia of Numenor that came down to Arnor and Gondor was made of mithril, as was the original Elendilmir found by Gimli and Aragorn secreted by Saruman in Orthanc. (UT, "Disaster of the Gladden Fields," p. 277 see esp fn 31) Apparently, the filet of the original Elendilmir was made of mithril native to Numenor. "For that metal [mithril] was found in Numenor. ..." (UT, p. 284, fn 31) Additionally we have an actual search for mithril being made on the order of the Numenorean King Tar-Telemmaite, 15th ruler: "[He] is said to have been called so (i.e. 'silver-handed') because of his love of silver, 'and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril' " (UT, p. 284, fn 31) Christopher Tolkien believes this note to be an indication that his father felt the Numenoreans had found mithril ores on Numenor, but points out that Gandalf, much later, said mithril was found only at Khazad-dum. Another conundrum, like who is Older, Tom Bombadil or Treebeard?
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 27, 2013 14:28:52 GMT -6
Oooooo! This sent fingers of chill down my spine:
"It appeared to be a child's rag doll but the form it presented was no hobbit shape. In fact, it was barely humanoid at all. The strange lumpy creature was green and frog-like. Its eyes were two red beads that glimmered in the sunlight and it had a row of large buck teeth. Its arms and fingers were unnaturally long and its feet were over-sized. Altogether, it was quite a proper little monster."
Yes! Lovely! I especially like the evocation of the mythology of the hobbits being tied in with Tolkien's poetry!!! Very nicely done, sir!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 28, 2013 14:05:05 GMT -6
Mewlips - very creepy - even the name is creepy. Watch out travelers! You don't want your bones to end up in a sack. How did Fredeghar hear about these creatures so he could tell Dwyrmur about the legend/tale? Is this something you are making up or from LOTRO game or has Tolkien said something in another of his tales?
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 29, 2013 13:56:59 GMT -6
We got out of order a bit this last time around. Originally, we were going like this:
Fanuidhal for DaleAnn Fredeghar for Dwyrmur Andorinha Stormrider Desi
Since Freddie/Dwyrmur just went last, should we make a new rotation order and put Freddie/Dwyrmur after Desi like this?
Fanuidhal for DaleAnn Andorinha Stormrider Desi Fredeghar for Dwyrmur
Or would Freddie be okay with keeping the original order even though he would write again sooner?
|
|
|
Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Sept 2, 2013 22:45:26 GMT -6
Mewlips - very creepy - even the name is creepy. Watch out travelers! You don't want your bones to end up in a sack. How did Fredeghar hear about these creatures so he could tell Dwyrmur about the legend/tale? Is this something you are making up or from LOTRO game or has Tolkien said something in another of his tales? "The Mewlips" is a poem by Tolkien in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (printed in The Tolkien Reader and other collections of his work). It represents a hobbit legend. I figured that if they had that legend in the Shire, the Stoors of the Gladden Fields might have had it as well. The story always struck me as an ancestral hobbit memory of encounters with Middle-earth predators like orcs or trolls, probably from the hobbits' Wandering Days before the Shire was settled. I based my description of the Mewlips on a rather awesome video on YouTube. Someone set the poem to music and animated it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ntMbUEjf0I have no preference on the writing order. Whatever you guys want to do is fine.
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Sept 3, 2013 5:52:57 GMT -6
oooooo! Creepy video clip! That scared the bejeezus out of me!
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Sept 21, 2013 9:40:58 GMT -6
OK who's up?
If no one else is ready I can do an extension (place-holder) continuing the conversation between Andy and Dwyrmur -- relative to the flute?
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Sept 21, 2013 11:40:29 GMT -6
I think it is Fan's turn up. But you could do something about us all gathering with our mathoms to show them off to each other.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Sept 21, 2013 12:30:01 GMT -6
Really? My turn? Ummmm.....uh, oh. *Clears throat* Sorry! I was sure it was anybody's turn, but mine.
Ok, Andy, if you would continue the flute conversation, while I get my act together....I'd appreciate it. Fan
|
|