|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 17, 2020 14:39:50 GMT -6
On August 16, 2020 Fobria said: This could be, as this post says, more wishful thinking, but perhaps some evidence in its favor, is the apparent preservation of the myth among the Amanyar and Sindar (quite a diverse group). There would, presumably, be a reason for this. And it'd seem very possible, I think (and as Fredeghar said) that some of the awakened Elves would still be around even when the Cuivienyarna was supposed to have been fictionally transmitted or written in Tolkien's timeline. (bold and italics, mine) War of the Jewels, pg 420. "According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar..." (Bold, mine) I want to believe the bolded words are the "proof" of the legend being true. I agree with Fobria, to have a story nearly maintained as originally stated, among the diverse groups, would be improbable, unless the groups felt it very important to do so. But, how was it told, in prose, poetry, or song? If we knew that, it might make a difference. Back in June 1952, Letter #133, to his publisher, Tolkien was surprised to receive a inquiry about his poem "Errantry". A person in Washington DC had learned the verses from someone else, with only a vague notion that they came from an English university. Someone tenacious enough started writing to universities and one such letter came to Tolkien. "I must say that I was interested in becoming 'folk-lore'. Also, it was intriguing to get an oral version - which bore out my views on oral tradition (at any rate in early stages): sc. that the 'hard words' are well preserved, and the more common words altered, but the metre is often disturbed." The letter goes on to say where the poem might have started its oral tradition. Perhaps, 1933. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errantry
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 17, 2020 18:33:58 GMT -6
This article by Martinez is very detailed and well-researched and likely requires multiple re-reads for me to fully wrap my head around it. I'm still not sure what "Notinole" means. But some notable quotes are - Martinez's statements would seem to lend themselves easily to a fictional reconstruction of how sixes and twelves, and 144, came to be emphasized by the Eldar.
For example, supposing there really were 144 unbegotten Elves as per Cuivienyarna in Tolkien's world, these ancestors would be accorded a place of special honor, and this would be a prominent number preserved in memory, which would naturally and subsequently be used in many different domains of counting e.g.
(i) in reckoning time like in a yen, or
(ii) in using it as a sum total which is subdivided in various ways into wholes for further counting purposes e.g. for recording the relative proportions of the clans in Middle Earth or Aman (e.g. 82 to 62 as the proportion of Moriquendi to Amanyar as per War of the Jewels p.g. 381).
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 18, 2020 4:28:52 GMT -6
When I finished the article yesterday, instead of trying to write something about it, I decided to go do something easy like fall off some buildings in Bree. What I did latch on to on the first reading was that JRRT was interested in the duo-decimal system and he tried to make it work within Middle-earth. And this morning, my head is cloudy, not having a restful night sleep, so rather than attempt any great use of my brain by rereading the article, I decided to see if I could track down "notinole": plain google search and google translate; then the Elvish dictionary; then thought it might be an old place name, so I tried adding gazetteer to a search; checked the indices of LotR, The Hobbit, and even delved into a couple of HoMe. Not a thing. Inspiration struck, and I decided to check the comments to the article, in the three places places google had found it. 05-03-2001, 08:13 AM What is "notinole"?
testing 123 Michael Martinez 05-03-2001, 03:22 PM I combined it from the Quenya words "note" (that's an e-umlaut on the end of the word, so I think it's supposed to sound like "noh-tay") and "nole" (another e-umlaut).
After perusing Helge Fauskanger's Ardalambion, I decided this was the closest word to something like "number theory" that I could devise. "Note" is the word for "number", and "noti" is its plural. "Nole" is the word for long study. So, literally, the combined word is intended to mean "study (of) numbers".
I've haven't heard from any linguists on the essay, so I assume no one in the linguistic community has seen it (or else they don't care).entmoot.tolkientrail.com/archive/index.php?t-774.html
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 18, 2020 6:20:40 GMT -6
But, how was [The Cuivienyarna] told, in prose, poetry, or song? If we knew that, it might make a difference. I was just doing something else, and reflecting on yesterday's schooling with Gson. Rather than start new material in Latin, I decided to do review yesterday, since he had been off of school for 2 weeks. I had him listen to the CD that accompanies the books. The program is called Song School Latin. So, he sang the songs along with the CD, including a counting to 10 song. So, duh! If young Elven children were anything like human children, how would they best learn? Through song. Also, I have a gripe to air. Imin, Tata, Enel - 1, 2, 3. Their spouses Iminye, Tatie, Enelye - 4?, 5?, 6? - No. I wonder if the number name convention continued with the other 69 male Unbegotten Elves. www.languagesandnumbers.com/how-to-count-in-sindarin/en/sjn/www.languagesandnumbers.com/how-to-count-in-quenya/en/qya/
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 18, 2020 10:21:58 GMT -6
Thank you for your research concerning the meaning of Notinole. I too wasn't able to find anything from a quick google search but you dug deeper. It would have helped if he put the umlaut on the e, as that would have better provided the clue that this was Queyna.
According to Parf Edhellen, the suffix -ye in Quenya means 'and'. Perhaps the number name convention stopped after the first three, as there were no more clans (these clan leaders having special honor such that their names became somewhat ubiquitous in the language), and other Elves may have wanted to choose their own names!
The form of the Cuivienyarna we have is certainly in narrative form. It would be interesting if there were a prior, sung or poetical version of it (maybe this could be another fan fiction project!). In my mind, I think it'd be first told or transmitted orally (like in many preliterate societies) before being written down. And its preservation among the diverse Elf groups would be a testament to both how well the tradition is preserved (both orally and later written), and also to the reality of certain historical events in the legend itself.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 18, 2020 13:42:04 GMT -6
I only inputted the whole word in the Elvish dictionary, not thinking there were 2 roots. Even if I had, I would have had to experiment, not knowing where to split them. It worked out in the end. I do my family's genealogy. I comb through old newspapers looking for relatives included within. I often read the society pages, where I can find "Mrs. Joseph Smith visited Mrs. John Jones". Occasionally, a widow may be able to have her own name back. Of course, further back I have seen "Widow Smith, derelict of Joseph". Love those, considering our modern use of the word. I really do not fault JRRT for using "ye/and" considering the times, even though my hackles go up. Oral traditions face the challenge of accurate transmission and verifiability of the accurate version, particularly when the culture lacks written language or has limited access to writing tools. Oral cultures have employed various strategies that achieve this without writing. For example, a heavily rhythmic speech filled with mnemonic devices enhances memory and recall. A few useful mnemonic devices include alliteration, repetition, assonance, and proverbial sayings. In addition, the verse is often metrically composed with an exact number of syllables or morae - such as with Greek and Latin prosody and in Chandas found in Hindu and Buddhist texts.[39][40] The verses of the epic or text are typically designed wherein the long and short syllables are repeated by certain rules, so that if an error or inadvertent change is made, an internal examination of the verse reveals the problem.[39] Oral Traditions are able to be passed on through means of plays and acting which can be shown in the modern day Cameroon by the Graffis or Grasslanders who act out and deliver speeches to spread their history in the manner of Oral Tradition.[41] Such strategies help facilitate transmission of information from individual to individual without a written intermediate, and they can also be applied to oral governance.[42] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_traditionI just had a thought. JRRT did not know what that story was. He did call it a legend, a fairytale, or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore (War of the Jewels, pg 420-421) As Stormy pointed out earlier in the discussion, it is unsatisfying as a fairy-tale, unless of course, what we see here is a synopsis written for adults. I can't add anything to your post on Martinez' article 'Notinole From Babylon to Middle-earth'. I think you pulled the most meaningful information for our discussion here. But, if you wish to continue to pick it apart, maybe I'd understand more of what he is saying.
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 18, 2020 17:14:56 GMT -6
Just another, (hopefully) somewhat related, thought on meaning of names (like Imin, Tata and Enel) and the relationship between the names of prominent (if legendary) past individuals and their meanings and usage in ordinary language.
"Adam" is both the name of the supposed first Man in the Hebrew Bible, and also just means "man" (or "human") in Hebrew. If he really did exist, it wouldn't be too surprising that this would be the first human's name! "Eve" means "life-giver". I wonder if Tolkien didn't (consciously or unconsciously) model part of the Cuivienyarna on the Genesis creation accounts.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 18, 2020 17:22:18 GMT -6
Very cool! Yes!
I have been thinking of famous/infamous numbers in various cultures. pi, 13, etc but, I don't know of anyone named for these numbers. LOL
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 19, 2020 4:19:04 GMT -6
It is odd to me that, sometimes, I have difficulty seeing the forest from the trees or vice versa. I know that Tolkien infused his work with his Christian/Catholic worldview. Since I was raised in that tradition, and having gone to Catholic school for 13 years (a million years ago and rebelliously at times), it is still difficult for me to notice those Christian themes because they are so familiar. John Garth pointed out in Tolkien and the Great War pg 260, and speaking more specifically about Lost Tales, that the Elves left Cuivienen for a better life in Valinor. And I will add, they were asked to come by the 'gods' rather than expelled from their Eden. Evil entered both - in Cuivienen, more cunningly than 'The Serpent's' method in Eden. The Elves didn't have a relationship with the 'gods' until Orome showed up. But, Adam and Eve did right away. However, Elves and Man got to name things, as language progressed. On August 16, 2020, I wrote: Tolkien and The Great War, by John Garth. (Love this book, a lot) pg 259-260. He is referencing Lost Tales, nothing later. "In leaving their place of origin, the Waters of Awakening, for a better life in the earthly paradise of Elvenhome, the Eldar follow the same progression as the Valar, who left heaven for their first paradise in the midst of the world. This curious repeated pattern, quite distinct from the Judaeo-Christian myth of Eden, seems less surprising in the context of Tolkien's own wandering existence, particularly his childhood idyll, after leaving South Africa, in the English West Midlands - a home 'perhaps more poignant to me because I wasn't born to it'....For the Valar and the Elves, home is a blessing discovered, not inherited."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And I was thinking about the Adam = Man. Most proper names come from common word names. My own means: "English: from Middle English dale ‘dale’, ‘valley’ (Old English dæl, reinforced in northern England by the cognate Old Norse dalr), a topographic name for someone who lived in a valley, or a habitational name from any of the numerous minor places named with this word, such as Dale in Cumbria and Yorkshire. Irish: possibly in some cases of English origin, but otherwise an Anglicized form of Gaelic Dall, a byname meaning ‘blind’. Norwegian: habitational name from a farm named from Old Norse dali, the dative case of dalr ‘valley’. It is a common name in Norway, especially western Norway, and is also found in Sweden. Americanized spelling of German Dahl." link
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 19, 2020 7:18:50 GMT -6
Speaking of numbers and Elven history . . .
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 19, 2020 7:25:47 GMT -6
WOW, Stormy! Love, Phoebe's face (Assuming it is from Friends)! And LotR Elves vs Sil Elves -- so true!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 19, 2020 7:26:54 GMT -6
And speaking of dogs . . . From The Hobbit in the Flies and Spiders chapter ... 2nd and last paragraphs . . . 2nd paragraph, Were Thranduil's Elves hunting or Last paragraph, were Men from Lake Town hunting ? If they were the Elves, then here is the first mention that Elves had dogs. But then again, Bilbo snuck out of Thranduil's hall when the Elves went hunting (while he was trying to think of a way to help the Dwarves escape) and there is no mention of the dogs going with them. Also no mention that any dogs sniffed him out while he was in hiding using The Ring.
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 19, 2020 7:28:08 GMT -6
I assume Pheobe is from Friends, too!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 19, 2020 7:36:45 GMT -6
Speaking of dogs, again, This is me playing ball with my Twizzle pup pup ... (I searched my most recent posts, so I don't think I posted this before!)
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 19, 2020 11:01:45 GMT -6
Weren't we talking about dogs in the siamese cat thread? *Scratched head thinking about either thread*. LOL
|
|