|
Post by Androga Erindalant on Sept 1, 2005 14:18:55 GMT -6
Sil Ch3: Of Eldamar and the Princes of Eldalië
In time the Vanyar and the Noldor arrived on the western shores of the Hither Lands. In the north those shores ran further towards the West, only seperated by a small sea from Aman, but that region was filled with ice because of Melkor’s frost. Therefore Oromë brought the Elves to the lands around the Sirion. Ulmo came to those shores to talk to the Elves, and by his words their fear for the sea was turned into desire. Then Ulmo detached an island and moved it into the Bay of Balar. The Vanyar and Noldor embarked onto it and were then were taken to the coasts of Aman. Though one piece broke and remained in the Bay of Balar, and this was called the Isle of Balar.
The Teleri had stayed in East Beleriand and by that heard Ulmo’s summons too late. They were still searching for their lord Elwë, but when they heard Ingwë and Finwë’s peoples had left, many of them travelled to the Mouth’s of Sirion, and they took Olwë, Elwë’s brother, as their king. Long they stayed at the shores of the western sea, where they learned much of sea-lore and sea-music from Ossë, Maia of Ulmo. Only after many years they were brought to Aman, when the Noldor and their King Finwë asked Ulmo for them. Yet some stayed in the region of Ossë. They were the Falathrim, the first makers of ships in Middle-earth, and Círdan was their lord.
Elwë Singollo’s kinsfolk and friends also remained in Middle-earth, where they were still searching for him, even while they longed to go to Valinor too. When Elwë awoke from his trance he came with Melial from Nan Elmoth to live in the woods in the middle of the land. His people gathered around him and they were amazed, as he looked as noble as if he was a lord of the Maiar.
During the journey of the Teleri to Aman they were followed by Ossë. They recognized him and asked Ulmo to stop their journey. Ulmo fulfilled their request, as he understood them. The island was rooted to the foundations of the earth. It lay alone, close to the bay of Eldamar, and it was called Tol Eressëa. There they lived for as long as they wanted under the stars, but still remained in the sight of Aman. To the Vanyar and the Noldor in Aman the Valar had given a land to live. Because the Elves still longed to see the stars, the Valar made a valley in the great walls of the Pelóri, which ran down to the sea. In there, on the hill Túna, the Elves built their city Tirion. From the west the light of the Trees shone upon it, and to the east it looked upon Tol Eressëa. Ingwë, king of the Vanyar, lived in the highest tower of the city. Since the Elves most loved the white tree of all things, a lesser image was planted in the city, and it was named Celeborn. From this tree Nimloth, the White Tree of Númenor comes.
Aulë loved the Noldor most, because of their great skill and their thirst for knowledge. They had great love for words, found delight in the building of great towers and they were the first who discovered the earth-gems, which they shaped in many forms. Because the Noldor later returned to Middle-earth, their princes are very important in this tale. Finwe, king of the Noldor, had three sons; Fëanor – who was the most skilled, Fingolfin – the bravest of them, and Finarfin, the fairest and wisest. The sons of these 3 princes are listed below. But now it is told how the Teleri finally reached Aman. They lived for a long age on Tol Eressëa, but slowly their hearts changed and they were attracted by the light of the west. Therefore Ossë taught them how to make ships. When those were built, he brought many swans, who pulled the ships to Eldamar. There they lived, and they could see the light of the Trees or wander through the streets of Valmar or Tirion, but most they sailed on their ships in the Bay of Elvenhome. Their palaces were of pearl, which they got from the sea. Their city was Alqualondë, the Haven of the Swans, which was also the haven of their ships.
As centuries passed the Vanyar started to love the land of the Valar and the full light of the Trees more. They left the city of Tirion to dwell on Manwë’s mountain or in the plains and woods of Valinor. They got sundered of the Noldor, who remained on the hill of Túna, and who grew closer to the people of Alqualondë. Finwë was King in Tirion and Olwë in Alqualondë, but Ingwë of the Vanyar was always held the High King of all the Elves.
|
|
|
Post by Androga Erindalant on Sept 1, 2005 14:21:12 GMT -6
The Princes of the Noldor There is a tough part in this chapter, when you suddenly are presented a dozen of Noldor princes. It is hard to reFriend all those names in once, which is the main reason why I didn’t put them all in the chapter summary above. Instead I’m presenting them here, where you can find them back quickly.
Finwë, king of the Noldor - Fëanor, the most learned and skilled - - Maedhros, the tall - - Maglor, the mighty singer - - Celegorm, the fair - - Caranthir, the dark - - Curufin, the crafty - - Amrod, twin of Amras - - Amras, the youngest, along with Amrod
- Fingolfin, the strongest, the most steadfast and valiant - - Fingon, later the King of the Noldor in the North - - Turgon, later the Lord of Gondolin - - Aredhel, the White
- Finarfin, the fairest and wizest of heart - - Finrod, the faithful - - Orodreth - - Angrod - - Aegnor - - Galadriel, the most beautiful of the house of Finwë
Note: Finwë has married twice. Fëanor’s mother was Míriel Serindë. But Indis of the Vanyar, Finwë’s second wife, was the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin. More on this will be given in the next chapter.
Questions for Ch. 5 Olwë had a hard choice to make: finding his brother back and missing the last chance to go to Valinor, or to leave and never see his brother again. What must he have taken into account when taking this decision? And what would you do if you had to make the same decision?
Ossë liked to live with the Teleri at the shores of Middle-earth. He'd rather have the Teleri to stay near his shores and calls for them when they are taken to Aman by Ulmo. But still he aids them to reach Eldamar, after they dwelt on Tol Eressëa for a long age. Why does he do that?
In this chapter the princes of the Noldor are presented. Which of the three sons of Finwë you like most? Who of their sons you like most? Please also tell why. To which of them you resemble most? (as far as you can tell with the current info on them)
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Feb 22, 2007 12:34:09 GMT -6
I'm very glad I re-read this chapter as several items have become more "clear" upon this re-aquaintance.
There was some confusion in my mind concerning Tolkien's account of the primary "removal mechanism" used in this chapter. On p. 57 it appears that the uprooted isle, the "floating island," is drawn by Ulmo across the sea with only the Vanyar and the Noldor on board. "Then the Vanyar and the Noldor embarked upon that isle, and were drawn over the sea... But the Teleri remained still in Middle-earth... and they heard not the summons of Ulmo until too late; and many searched for Elwe their lord..."
I had always thought that the Teleri then made the crossing on their ships. Not so! Years after their own "island-hop" across the Sea, the Vanyar and Noldor petitioned Ulmo to bring the Teleri to Aman. Apparently, he uprooted the floating island and took it back to Middle-earth for its second voyage. Part of the Teleri, the "main host," under Olwe, make the passage at this time, while some stay at Osse's behest along the shores (the Falathrim of Cirdan) and some ("The Forsaken" Elves, the Eglath) remain behind, searching still for Elwe.
The floating Isle (with its Teleri under Olwe) is finally fixed near Valinor as Tol Eressea, and "the island was not moved again..." (p. 59). Its final position allowed the Teleri to be close to Valinor, to visit when they would the Noldor and the Vanyar, yet still be near the seas they love.
Question: "Olwë had a hard choice to make: finding his brother back and missing the last chance to go to Valinor, or to leave and never see his brother again. What must he have taken into account when taking this decision? And what would you do if you had to make the same decision?"
In short: Olwe must have been under considerable pressure to shepherd those of the Teleri who wanted greatly to go to Valinor. He was also being pressed by Ulmo who wanted to "leave now." I think JRRT also shows us that Olwe was himself very eager to leave Middle-earth. Under these combined pressures, Olwe's responsibility to his brother could only be expected to hold briefly, and given these circimstances, where there was no knowledge that they would be offered another voyage to Valinor, Olwe, I think, did the correct thing, he left when he could.
More fully: In these pages, the initial relationship between Olwe and Elwe is told. Here, I did not find that JRRT deliberately played-up the potentially poignant loss of the two brothers. It might have made a better tale of melancholy and woe had JRRT shown us an Olwe who was greatly conflicted, equally torn by his desire to go to Valinor, and his great love of Elwe. But I did not get that message very clearly. Instead, from my reading of the passages, I got the feeling that Olwe's personal compulsion to go to Valinor, over-rode his fraternal obligations to Elwe. Olwe does stay for "years" in Middle-earth searching for Elwe, but when Ulmo finally seeks out the Teleri (to re-unite them with the Vanyar and Noldor) Olwe seems very eager to go (p. 58). Only the "kinsfolk and friends" of Elwe stay longer in Middle-earth while Ulmo and Olwe both make the decision to leave promptly. The Teleri are then split, because Ulmo and Olwe were not willing to "tarry longer."
Another problem I have with this chapter concerns what follows next (p. 61), the Teleri, stationed upon Tol Eressea, become great ship-builders so they could sail across the last bit of the seas that separated their island from Valinor. So, could they not also have sailed back to Middle-earth to pick up or visit the Falathrim of Cirdan and the Eglath Elves of Elwe? It seems that the division between the Teleri need not have been permanent, nor even prolonged. The melancholy aspect of Olwe's choice, leaving his brother behind for all time, could have been remedied -- Olwe could have used the ships of the Teleri to visit his brother from time to time, bringing over to Valinor those Elves who then wished to leave Middle-earth.
Or could he? When did the Valar first issue their ban on travel to Middle-earth? I thought this happened centuries, or even millenia later when Morgoth was released from his Three Ages of confinement and then cast down the Two Trees. If this assumption is correct, the "magical" ships of the Teleri would certainly have had plenty of time to sail back and forth from Valinor to Middle-earth. There should have been no reason for a breach between the Elven groups, Olwe could have visited Elwe frequently.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Feb 26, 2007 10:51:42 GMT -6
2) "Ossë liked to live with the Teleri at the shores of Middle-earth. He'd rather have the Teleri to stay near his shores and calls for them when they are taken to Aman by Ulmo. But still he aids them to reach Eldamar, after they dwelt on Tol Eressëa for a long age. Why does he do that?"
Ossë is an interesting character. He is portrayed in several Silmarillion passages as being rather self-centered, perhaps even a "rebellious" character. In the earliest of times, there was something in his character that encouraged Melkor to try to secure Ossë as a follower:
"Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it. It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavored to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him." (Sil. "Of the Maiar," p. 30)
Apparently Ossë was sorely tempted here, as Tolkien continues: "So it was that long ago there arose great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands." (Sil, p. 30) But Uinen, consort of Ossë, managed to persuade him to give up his projected connection with Melkor, to "behave" himself. Receiving a formal "pardon," Ossë largely remained faithful to the will of Manwe and the other Valar, but still delights "in violence" and "at times will he rage in his wilfulness without any command from Ulmo his lord. Therefore those who dwell by the sea or go up in ships may love him, but they do not trust him." (Sil, p. 30)
Ossë does not fit quietly into the hierarchy of the Valar/ Maiar, and sometimes he seems to be beyond "good and evil," belonging to himself rather than being coporatively identified with the "dutiful gods" who follow Manwe, or, alternatively, with the team of subverted gods who identify with Melkor/ Morgoth. Ossë, depending upon his own whims of expression, can at times be a deadly danger to Men and Elves and all who travel on the seas, or, as in chapter 5, he can be a great help to them, speeding them on their way toward Valinor.
Perhaps it should come as no surprise that Ossë, the "individualist" finishes this fine act of assistance with a "countering" act of rebellion. The Teleri are meant to leave Middle-earth, to enter Valinor proper. But, because he will miss their voices singing on the shores, some of the Teleri are persuaded by Ossë to stay in Middle-earth: "... and those were the Falathrim, the Elves of the Falas, who in after days had dwellings at the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord." (Sil, chpt 5, p. 58)*
A second act of "selfishness" comes when Ossë stops another group of Teleri from fully entering Valinor. Those who went with Olwe on the floating island, are halted somewhat short of its actual landfall. Ossë has petitioned Ulmo to leave the Teleri in the shades of the Ocean, so they will become truly a sort of "Twilight-People" although they are so near to Aman itself. Until the coming of the Sun, the Teleri will not be living in the full light of Valinor, and yet, not quite living in the Darkness under the stars.** Here, on an island that recieves a partial light from Valinor, the Teleri may still interact with the sea, may still be there to charm Ossë's heart with their songs. Whether their placement here contributes to the great act of rebellion and The Kinslaying of Feanor may be debated elsewhere -- had all the Teleri gone fully into Valinor, and given up the seas, there would have been no ships for Feanor to steal?
JRRT does soften the "egotism" of Ossë, when he states that the Teleri themselves were already so tied to the sea that they could not have become a landlocked people, so that even Ulmo recognized that they would be happier in the Twilt World on the margins of Valinor, living within the sights and sounds of the waves. But still, we have in these early myths a clear example of how personal desire among the Valar/ Maiar, rebellious self-desire, could alter the course of history.
I think, as Androga implies in his question, that Ossë does redeem himself a bit later. The Teleri began to desire the light of Valinor, and Ulmo orders Ossë to assist the Elves in finishing their voyage, and he helps them create the sea craft that allow them to finally enter the land of light. Ossë "grieves" at their parting, but helps them anyway, overcoming (at last) his own egotistic desires to keep them ever near. In the end, a sort of compromise solution is found, as many of the Teleri remain upon the shores of Eldamar, and there they can interact with Ossë on a frequent basis.
____________ *Stormrider has pointed out (in the Hobbit thread) that Ossë is not the only "lover of elves" who, for whatever reason, interferres with the passage of Elves to Valinor. Melian may be another example to investigate in this regard.
**Here I am using the term Sindar = Twlight Elves "metaphorically," and not quite in a definitionally correct fashion. In the index of The Silmarillion, hardback p. 348, JRRT defines Sindar as "Grey Elves," neither of the Light of Valinor, nor of the Dark of the "unwilling" Elves. But here he seems to restrict the term "Sindar" to those Teleri Elves who started out trying to get to Valinor, but never finished the journey (The Falathrim Elves, and the Eglath Elves). In this sense, the "Twilight Dwelling" Teleri who made it to the shores of Eldamar might not be any longer considered "Sindar?"
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Feb 27, 2007 6:42:40 GMT -6
So your metaphoric definition of twighlight in this chapter refers to those elves who reside "almost" in Valinor rather than the definition I found in Robert Foster's book refering to the sleep of Yavanna when Morgoth's creatures were bred to live in darkness. This definition makes more sense when it refers to the Elves. But then this does not belong to the Sindar who stayed behind with Elwë--only to those who were with Olwë.
Elwë went into a trance when he met Melian. I think I am going to read this chapter in the Silmarillion again to reacquaint myself with this story.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Feb 28, 2007 9:55:57 GMT -6
Yes, Stormrider, I find I had to slip the use of "Twilight" into the metaphoric -- when referring to the Teleri of Olwe -- after I re-read your Hobbit line posts, #s 14 and 15, "Re: What's the problem with Mirkwood Elves?"
Tolkien is sometimes less than absolutely clear in his own definitions, largely due to his practice of continual revision. I honestly don't know if my distinctions hold up at this point. I am confused by the entry in The Silmarillion:
"Sindar The Grey-elves. The name was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin whom the returning Noldor found in Beleriand, save for the Green-elves of Ossiriand. The Noldor may have devised this name because the first Elves of this origin whom they met with were in the north, under the grey skies and mists about Lake Mithrim; or perhaps because the Grey-elves were not of the Light (of Valinor) nor yet of the Dark (Avari), but were Elves of the Twilight (56). But it was held to refer to Elwe's name Thingol (Quenya Sinda-collo, Singolo 'Grey-cloak'), since he was acknowledged high king of all the land and its peoples." (Sil. hb version, p. 348)
This quote, if it is definitive, gives us at least three bases for the term Sindar. So, what I have picked up, thus far, is that all the Teleri who did not actually set foot on Aman (the main continental mass of Valinor) are classifiable as Sindarin. But Tolkien himself seems unsure of the etymology of the term Sindar. At root it simply means "Grey." But did the Noldoran Elves take the name from the fact that Elwe Singolo, their leader, wore a Grey Mantle; or was the term derived from the fact that such Elves who answered the call to come to Valinor (but fell out of that migration along the road) were in some sort of twilit condition of existence, neither fully initiated into the Light of Aman, nor entirely still in the Dark of Middle-earth as were the "Unwilling," the Avari Elves? Or were they "Grey" simply because they lived in a misty land?
If "Sindarin" is restricted to those who accepted Elwe as king, then I wonder if the Falathrim Teleri, and such groups as the Green Elves of Ossiriand could not be considered Sindarin? In this case, Cirdan would not be Sindarin, would he? Certainly the Olwe-Teleri would not be Sindarin if the term is a political one, as they took Olwe for their king and abandonned both Middle-earth and Elwe. But, if Sindar is interpreted as a "condition" -- being neither fully in the light, nor yet entirely out of it -- then I was thinking, the term would apply to the Teleri of Tol Eressea as well as all the others who wanted the Light, but had not yet gotten to it.
LOL! I'm even good at confusing myself!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Mar 1, 2007 7:16:42 GMT -6
Too bad JRRT didn't live longer to iron out all the loose ends! However, my twisted mind is understanding what you are saying!
I was thinking about Melian and Elwë again. I haven't gotten around to reading Chapter 5 yet, so I was wondering if "seeing" a Maia was enough to put Elwë into the trance. However, that does not make sense because any Elf, Human, and Dwarf (and probably Orcs and Trolls as well) would then be subject to go into trances if they saw Sauron, Morgoth, Gandalf, etc. Other Elves saw Ossë and Ulmo, too, and were not "tranced".
So what was it about Melian that caused the trance? Was she that beautiful? Or did Elwë see her in her "heavenly" form and that did it? I see she took on an earthly form in order to stay with Elwë when he came out of his trance.
Well, maybe if I read this chapter again, it would answer my questions. Where is my Sil book? I better take it to work with me as lunchtime reading!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Mar 2, 2007 7:07:02 GMT -6
Oromë, the hunter, was the first to see the first Children of Iluvatar (except for Melkor—who was already capturing those who roamed away from Cuivienen). The Eldar were filled with dread at Oromë’s coming because of Melkor.
Eventually the Eldar who did not run when Oromë approached could see the light of Aman in his face and knew he was not of the Dark as Melkor was. So the noblest of the Eldar were drawn to Oromë. These Eldar did not fall under an enchantment or spell when they saw his face. Their fear was because of Melkor’s whisperings and doings
Oromë tried to talk the Eldar into going to Valinor but they were afraid of the rest of the Valar since they had only seen them going to war against Melkor and only knew the wrathful side of them. I guess seeing nothing but angry Valars would be enough to scare the breeches off and Elf!
Finally, Oromë was able to convince Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë to go to Valinor and speak for their people. After seeing the Valar in their splendor, the three Eldar were so awed by Valinor and the Valar they went back and encouraged the rest of the Eldar to go to Valinor. This did not cause an enchantment either unless the Valar put a protecting spell on them or tuned down some of the heavenly glare so they would not be affected. But The Sil doesn't say that happened.
Ulmo uprooted an island and settled the Eldar’s fear of the sea and brought them to Valinor. These Elves didn’t fall under an enchantment or spell when they saw and accompanied Ulmo.
Elwë HEARD Melian’s song of nightingales and the enchantment fell on him. (She was already known among the Valar and Maiar for her songs of enchantment.)Then he heard her voice and his heart was filled with wonder and desire and he forgot all about his people and their trip to Valinor.
He followed the sound of her voice and when he saw her, he could see the light of Aman in her face. He was already enchanted but not struck dumb yet! He was filled with love and took her hand and a spell was put on him so they stood that way for long years. I guess you can see and hear a Valar/Maiar and still be reasonably in your own control, but just don’t touch one! Meanwhile those that would leave for Valinor went, and the rest stayed behind. When Elwë awoke from his spell, he still wished to go to Valinor but he could see the light of Aman in Melian’s face so he was content to leave it at that. I cannot find anything to explain why Melian enchanted him until so much time passed by. Why Elwë? Was she actually planning to lure him in particular or was he just the lucky guy who happened to stumble on Melian? Would Olwë or Finwë or any of the other leaders have been just as good for her?
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Mar 2, 2007 12:47:25 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider -- "I cannot find anything to explain why Melian enchanted him until so much time passed by. Why Elwë? Was she actually planning to lure him in particular or was he just the lucky guy who happened to stumble on Melian? Would Olwë or Finwë or any of the other leaders have been just as good for her?"
Stormrider, you have some real "puzzelers" here. I never stopped to consider the actual "mechanism" of enchantment between Elwe and Melian. Is it something she does to him, or is it just something that happens to them both? Certainly you are correct when you find that this is not a simple matter of Vala/ Maia contact with Elves, none of the other Elves fall into such enchantments from their own contacts with the Ainur who entered Arda.
I wonder if the several earlier versions of this Thingol-Melian story have any helpful alternatives? I have HOME XI, it may have a parallel version of this meeting, I'll check.
I'm also looking up the concept of "The Sleep of Yavanna" -- what's dat all about?
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Mar 2, 2007 15:43:08 GMT -6
After reading Silm a few times, I came to the conclusion that Melian was "sent" by Iluvatar, in order for Luthien to be born. I don't think she was told to enchant Thingol. I just think that Iluvatar decided Melian/Thingol was a good match to advance his agenda and "let" it happen. This seems to be an adequate explanation for an otherwise improbable event. *Sigh* Andorinha probably wants some proof that this was Tolkien's intention but, I have no clue. *Sigh* Fan
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Mar 3, 2007 5:22:02 GMT -6
Fanuidhol, I apologize beforehand if my remarks below misrepresent your positions, I am just very uncomfortable with the use of pre-destinations and fated courses as an explanatory device.
***************
Fanuidhol, nope, no citations required, if you state you are dealing with your own hunches, gut-feelings, etc. I speculate quite often myself. Sometimes there are no citations anyway. But when there are, wow, things become so much more solid, valid and useful!
*****************
Actually, Fan, you bring up several principal points of textual interpretation/ criticism that are all quite valid: hunches, gut feelings as to what is going on can quite often lead to very fruitful ways of understanding a text, especially if we have limited (or no) information from the author concerning what he was trying to do. Here, I recall no JRRT statement that would nicely allow us to see what roles he had in mind for Melian and Thingol -- so our own "guesses" may be the closest we can come to putting a meaning on this episode. But, of course, the inferences we draw from our personal feelings, our "hunches" are low probability answers, answers that may tell us more about the way our own minds work, than anything that might really be integral to the author's story. This is why I like an author's point of view statement to be cited whenever we can find one, it takes some of the personal bias of the readers out of the interpretation.
In some cases, there may be no author statement or intention that we can access, then, our own speculations are all we have to use, and we argue forever how valid or invalid these speculations might be.
But sometimes, with JRRT, there are cross references that may allow us to test some of our suppositions. A case in point would be the "luck ring" that Bilbo finds in the Goblin mines. Of course we "know" that it is really the One Ring, the central pre-destined element, the main mechanism that will hold The Hobbit and the sequel of LotR together. It is obvious then, that Bilbo is "fated" by the gods to find this Ring so that, a few volumes later, Frodo can bring it to the place of its destruction. All nice and tidy in a world that is a based on some principle of pre-destination.
But, oops! We have several earlier versions of the Hobbit, and from these we can clearly see that Bilbo's ring was NOT originally fated to be THE ONE RING. JRRT had to drastically alter his original narration (some 20 years later) to fit Bilbo's "luck ring" into a pattern of pre-destined narration when it becomes Sauron's One Ring.
So I wonder here, is there another version of the Elwe/ Melian episode that might show us that it was originally written as a "stand-alone" love story, written long before JRRT ever conceived of a Luthien and Beren? If so, how could this meeting have been "fated" just to produce Tinuviel so that she could mingle the blood of the Elves and Maia with that of Mortal Men?
I think the main trouble with arguments based on "pre-destination" is that they don't really explain anything, do they? All things seem, in hind-sight, to be purposefully interwoven, but this "appeareance" of a masterplan is after-the-fact, and if Melian had rejected Elwe, we could still say that it was "fated" just to make sure that the rejected Elwe would get to the floating island ship on time, etc, etc. An appeal to fated actions, so that they seem causally connected, really tells us nothing -- or maybe it fails by telling us everything?
So, especially with JRRT, I do not feel comfortable in using -- as a device of explanation -- the idea of pre-destination, of fated characters moving puppet-like through a fated line of episodes. This may work on one level (hind sight), but it tells me nothing about how Tolkien put his books together, how he took independent story lines, and later tried to alter them, in version after version, to force them into a unified mythology. Yes, I can see that he does this in his later years, but why? When do the individual episodes become "fated," and why did JRRT eventually choose one version over another?
Do not the individual story units still have their own internal logics/ reasons? Melian and Thingol meet, but why Thingol? Why not Ingwe, or Olwe, or someone else (as Stormrider puts it)? To simply say Thingol and Melian meet because they, and they alone are fated so to meet seems tautological, circular reasoning? Did they truly have no choices, no alternatives? I think Tolkien tries to show in all his Middle-earth writings the working of free will, especially in his Elves and Men, doesn't he? (see Letters) This seems inconsistent with a strict reliance on fate/ pre-destination...
All that said (speculation on my part until I find some supporting JRRT quotes!) -- you may be quite right Fan, maybe the meeting of Melian and Thingol has no real literary merit of its own, maybe it is just a bridging mechanism directed by fate to set up the next tale?
BORING! LOL!
I'll look some more, but right now my speculation would be that JRRT wrote his first version of Thingol and Melian as a love story, something to be prized for its deep emotions and its portrayal of a sudden love that was so powerful it froze both an Elf and a Goddess in rapt mutual contemplation, as the years rolled by them unoticed. I think, cannot yet demonstrate -- no citations! -- that Luthien and Beren were not in JRRT's mind at all when he sang the first tale of Elwe and Melian.
But, without supporting evidence, Fan, your interpretation is just as likely to be true as mine, and it does meet the Occam's Razor test far better than my over-wordy responses!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Mar 4, 2007 8:48:22 GMT -6
I have the gut feeling too that JRRT wanted a very "pure" strain in the Numenorean line. Ithink having one of the Maiar's blood did that.
I, too, am going to look through my HOME books to see if I can find more about why Melian felt an Elf (be it one who saw Valinor) worthy of her love--enough to make her stay in Beleriand and cause Elwë and the rest of his people to miss the boat (err, island).
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Mar 5, 2007 5:56:08 GMT -6
Andorinha, as usual this thread may be going into several frayed strands very soon as this evolves!
You wrote: "I think Tolkien tries to show in all his Middle-earth writings the working of free will, especially in his Elves and Men, doesn't he? (see Letters) This seems inconsistent with a strict reliance on fate/ pre-destination..."
Men do have free will...Elves though, I'm not sure it is so cut and dry. "The Music of the Ainur" chapter contains a line that has remained virtually unchanged, especially in intent, from its earliest conception in the mid to late 1910's. [Men] "might fashion and design their life beyond even the original Music of the Ainur that is as fate to all things else." LT1.
The original version of "Beren and Luthien" is from 1917. Beren was a man. (Later versions he was an Elf, then back to a man). A version of Melian/Thingol exists in that story. What I don't know (yet) is if they predate Beren/Luthien. JRRT Companion: Reader's Guide: 'Of Beren and Luthien'.
I have my Mom visiting...enough said for cutting short? Fan
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Mar 5, 2007 7:13:34 GMT -6
I am searching my other books and many of those versions don't go into any more detail and are even less descriptive in some cases.
It seems that Elwë heard the music of Melian's nightingales and was enchanted. Then he searched for her and when they touched, they both were under the spell.
It does not seem that Melian had singled Elwë out in particular to fall under her spell. He just happened to be roaming in the woods, heard her music, searched for her, found her, they touched, and they both stood still together for many years.
It is almost as if it was "meant" to happen. I get the feeling that any other male Elf walking through the woods at that time would have succumbed to the same "fate".
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Mar 6, 2007 2:14:12 GMT -6
Stormrider, from a "gut-feeling" sort of reaction, I think it feels right, that Thingol and Melian would be used as the vehicles of genetic transmission leading to a boost in the "bloodline" of Men, but I'd still like to see some admission from JRRT that he was thinking along these lines himself. I'll continue looking for supporting statements here.
Fanuidhol, yes, the usual problem has cropped up here again. We have gotten into rather a wide range of topics/ subtopics -- anyone of which probably deserves a separate line: 1)Uses of Fate/ predestination/ determination vrs freewill in Middle-earth;is Tolkien restricting himself to an RC interpretation, or was he (especially in the early writings) using a pagan Norse concept of fated destinies? 2) an investigation into the Melian/ Thingol pairing, just what does it mean in our estimations, and is there anyway of finding out how JRRT viewed this episode?
I'll develope my own speculations on both these topics, and look for any quotes that might allow us to see how JRRT thought they should be interpreted. But I'll be moving slowly on both of these threads, so enjoy your Mom's visit -- it'll probably be a week before I feel competent to open this discussion a bit further.
So, Stormrider, if you pick up some citations, or if you merely have some interesting speculations to offer, go ahead! Like you, the one or two other Melian stories I've checked so far, are just cut down versions of the Silmarillion text, and do not seem to offer us anything more than we already have...
|
|