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Post by Andorinha on Feb 24, 2021 12:16:21 GMT -6
Great, Fan, looking forward to reading your results!
I'll have a Part II for these Barrow-blades on this thread soonish, nothing on funeral practices...
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 25, 2021 12:25:04 GMT -6
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 28, 2021 9:22:04 GMT -6
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Post by Andorinha on Mar 8, 2021 15:01:34 GMT -6
It is difficult to find reputable records of JRRT's actual interactions with the prehistoric British monuments, but this may be one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1kKAkosPbETolkien comes in for a brief cameo appearance at 20:30 on this video.
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Post by Andorinha on Mar 30, 2021 11:29:04 GMT -6
Merry's Sword Part IICuriouser and curiouser... I am beginning to wonder if there is so much to the Tolkien Corpus, that if one researches long enough, hard enough -- eventually one can find a supporting statement for almost any notion, concept, or argument. After Part I of "Merry's Sword," I was left somewhat in dismay, the barrows blades were not likely to have been made of bronze afterall. Rats, the shape of the willow-leaf blades, the apparent unfamiliarity of the hobbits with the metal of their composition, the uncorroded nature of the long buried swords, their association with the tomb barrows of an ancient, long vanished folk all seemed to cry out "these are Bronze Age weapons, made of bronze." Alas #1, Passage Barrows, those with deliberate doorways, were not a common feature of the Bronze or Iron Ages, rather they belonged to the Neolithic era, a stone technology culture, pre-dating the use of metals. Alas #2, FotR, "Fog on the Barrow-Downs," tells us there were items of "gold, silver, copper, and bronze" in the barrow, no mention of iron or steel (p. 156 and 158) -- so surely the swords must have been made of bronze. But JRRT never tells us in the published FotR version from exactly what metal these swords were made. Page 161 gives us the most fulsome description of the barrow blades, "dagger, long. leaf-shaped. And keen, of marvelous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold." But no mention of the type of metal forming the blades... But then, in deeper scrutiny of the Tolkien Corpus, in The Return of the Shadow, (p. 128) I found this intriguing statement: "... in the first text the story is that Tom chose for them 'bronze swords, short, leaf-shaped and keen...'" here we have Christopher Tolkien quoting his father's early manuscript in which JRRT himself viewed these barrows blades as being made of bronze. So, I guess I am partially self-vindicated, even Tolkien himself originally felt the barrow blades to be composed of bronze. But why does the FotR published version drop the identification of "bronze?" Hmmm, need more research here. Another item of interest, perhaps some of you may know this already: these blades had a peculiar decorative element "damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold." (FotR, p. 161) Why serpents? Were serpents a Numenorean artistic element? Do we have any other "serpents" in LotR? The southern Haradrim foes of Gondor carry a serpent blazoned banner, black and scarlet ("The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" p. 872), so why would the Cardolan peoples of Arnor use a serpent? Is there some association of sword blades that JRRT was following here, a tradition of snake forms being placed on real world, ancient swords? I have found an Iron Age series of swords with a serpent decoration, is this what JRRT was following? Attachments:
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Post by Stormrider on Mar 30, 2021 12:34:33 GMT -6
I found this link after wondering about the strengths of swords depending on their type of metal. deadliestwarrior.fandom.com/wiki/SwordGo down the page to the section called, History of European swords. It says bronze was not strong enough for swords but was strong enough for daggers. Since the hobbits were small, weren't they given daggers to fit their size? Voila! Bronze daggers! And a little further down. And this is from a different search. that was an answer to a question so no link to it.
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Post by Andorinha on Mar 30, 2021 22:52:50 GMT -6
Thank You, Stormy! Yeah never did see a bronze, 6 foot claymore. That certainly makes sense, hobbit dagger size by the limits of weight and tensile strength for bronze. They did have three foot long swords of bronze, but the really long blades of 12th -15th centuries would have to wait for iron/ steel, I guess. Very interesting material, now I've got another research project: Bronze vrs Iron!
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Post by Stormrider on Mar 31, 2021 6:54:54 GMT -6
So the Hobbits swords were made by the Dunedain in Cardolan specifically to fight the evil creatures of Angmar. Where did the Dunedain learn to craft with such skill to fight such evil? Interesting link from Tolkien Gateway: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Daggers_of_Westernesse
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Post by Stormrider on Mar 31, 2021 7:10:25 GMT -6
Fredegar: I agree wholeheartedly with you about the lack of emphasis on Éowyn and Merry's teamwork in destroying the Witchking. Merry and Éowyn were mortally wounded from having their blades pierce the Witchking's body and PJ does not make that clear in the movie at all. As a matter of fact, Aragorn only seems to be healing her broken arm and not her whole body. Then everyone left Merry out on the battle field and only Pippin searched for him. Merry never went to the Houses of Healing in the movie and he needed the athelas to heal his hurts, too. Reading back through the comments posted in this thread, I felt the same, Freddie, but the battle was still in pretty full swing and people and foes were fighting and dropping left and right. The battle wasn't over by a long shot even with the Witchking gone. Eowyn and Merry would appear to be fallen heroes despite their wondrous accomplishment. However, Legolas' antics were a bit much and did distract from the impact of what Merry and Eowyn had done. I sure cheered them while sitting in the theater!
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Post by Stormrider on Mar 31, 2021 7:23:24 GMT -6
I wondered how the Dunedain of Cardolan learned to make swords worthy enough to fight the evil creatures of Angmar and found this link to a thread on the Tolkien Forum. The blades were made in the early years of the Dunedain, so I guess they would have had contact with both Dwarf and Elf weaponsmiths. Especially since they are supposing in the thread that there may have been Mithril in the daggers. www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/crafting-of-the-knives-from-the-barrow-downs.23859/?amp=1
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 1, 2021 2:55:14 GMT -6
Interesting to see how others have been dealing with this topic of the barrow blades! Thanks Stormy.
Hmmm, mithril. It is interesting that Tolkien never (to my knowledge) used mithril in weapons? It shows up in Numenorean armor, I believe, especially as the "heirloom" helmets of the guards in Gondor. I think the scepter of Annuminas is also made of mithril, but I cannot recall the Numenorean/ Gondoran/ Arnorean blades as ever being describe as having mithril in them? Even the Elven blades, like Glamdring and Orchrist do not have a mention of mithril content. Hmm, what was Durin's Ax made of? I'll have to do some research on this issue!
The nice thing about bronze, compared to iron or steel, is that bronze does not rust. In real-life archaeological finds, bronze that has lain in tumulus mounds for thousands of years may pick up a greenish-blue patina, but is basically uncorroded. Mithril does not seem to rust or corrode either, so do we have any statement from JRRT, even in his alternate manuscripts that couples weapons with mithril? We do have his statement (Return of the Shadow, p. 128) that he was at one time envisioning the barrow blades as being made of bronze, but no mention, so far, of mithril.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 1, 2021 4:45:11 GMT -6
I don't know why mithril wouldn't be used in weapons. It is light weight but very strong. Bilbo's Mithril shirt protected Frodo against a blow from a troll, that's how strong it was! So it is strong, why not weapons?
It seems like it would work well as a weapon's only ingredient, or in a mix with other metals. The dwarves had it in abundance and made so many things from it (as well as other metals) they must have experimented with it in weapons. Don't you think? Especially when the Dwarves were in the height of their crafting abilities when they had their rings of power. Maybe something in The Silmarillion?
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 1, 2021 5:08:53 GMT -6
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Post by fanuidhol on Apr 1, 2021 10:22:25 GMT -6
I have a more symbolic line of thought for mithril. We find mithril used as protection - mail, helmets, settings for gemstones, and gates. Also, the alloy ithildin was made to outline secret passageways. And swords are used for destroying.... Not only that we need one broken sword in the story. But, if it was made of mithril? All the symbolism of the sword reforged would never be. And that would diminish the story greatly. I read the Wikipedia article on mithril and these thoughts came to mind.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 1, 2021 10:33:08 GMT -6
Oooo, more good stuff, Stormy, thanks!
I like the point that mithril may have been too light to have made a good blade, where the cutting power of a sword is as dependent upon the heft of the sword as its sharpness! Wish we had some comments by JRRT himself on such matters!
Tolkien does tell us, that in addition to armor, mithril could be used as a strengthening agent in construction: "In his time [King Elessar] the City was made more fair than it ever had been... and its gates were wrought of mithril and steel," (RotK, "The Steward and the King," p. 1004, single volume edition).
So they still had enough mithril around to make a city gate, that means enough of it must be available for blades, if it could have made good blades, but apparently, mithril was just not good for weapons?
Hmm, I like your symbolic thinking here Fan, yes mithril used for good/ constructive purposes, but not for weaponry of destruction -- works for me...
Good point too that an "unbreakable" mithril sword would alter the whole "renewable" theme, wondering if we can see Aragorn as a "renewable" monarch in the same context as his renewed blade?
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